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To: jcb8199
Actually the Church HAS changed with the political winds.

Priests and Popes used to be able to get married.

Many of the Popes and Cardinals throughout history have been very corrupt.

The Pope was a king a military ruler up until the 1800s.

54 posted on 04/19/2005 1:40:02 PM PDT by conserv13
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To: conserv13
The Pope was a king and military ruler up until the 1800s.

That part I miss...

67 posted on 04/19/2005 1:43:09 PM PDT by Puddleglum (Thank God the Boston blowhard lost)
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To: conserv13

There was a political movement to require a vow of celibacy? When'd that happen?

The only major changes that spring to mind are in the 15-1600s with the Counter-Reformation. And that was to correct problems within the Church, not due to pressure from without.

Pope didn't have an army, so I dunno how he could be a military ruler, nor did he pass secular laws, thus not a King. If he had his own army, why did he have to appeal to the princes and kings to help in the Crusades?


80 posted on 04/19/2005 1:51:09 PM PDT by jcb8199
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To: conserv13

yes, priests could marry until the Middle Ages. (13th century, I believe) Priestly celibacy was imposed as a matter of Discpline. it is not a part of Church Dogma or Doctrine. There is a difference. It was imposed because many priests were not performing their duties, but busy leading married lives. The discpline was imposed to focus men on their vocations exclusively. This was only imposed on the Roman rite of the Catholic Church. Other rites of the Catholic Church: Byzantine for example, continue to have married priests. (also we have married priests who converted from being priests in the Episcopalian and Lutheran denominations). Not ordaining women...this is a matter for doctrine, based on Jesus selecting his 12 Apostles. Not sanctioning gay marriage? Also doctrinal. (see the epistles of St. Paul, and the Book of Leviticus). Doctrine and Dogma are close to impossible to change. Thus, the gnashing and grinding of teeth over not getting female priests is likely to continue to the end of time.

As for corrupt Popes. Yep. there have been dozens. Popes who have used the office for pure political power. And there have been anti-Popes. But the Catholic believes, that even the Papacy is not immune to human corruption. What is immune is the teaching, the faith, the doctrine of the Church. Not coincidentally, those bad popes didn't issue anything of theological significance. We believe the Holy Spirit protected Church teaching from corruption in those cases. We could get an anti-Pope again. We continue to witness corruption in the pedophilia scandals. the church is made up of human beings, as is any church.



We put our faith in
God, in Christ and the Holy Spirit to guide the Church in such troubled times.


97 posted on 04/19/2005 2:02:04 PM PDT by tangodown
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To: conserv13

>> The Pope was a king a military ruler up until the 1800s. <<

Technically, he still is as much of a "king" as he ever was. The Papal states just shrank a lot. But they were never anything to sneeze at.

>> Priests and Popes used to be able to get married. <<

The last married Pope was Peter.


116 posted on 04/19/2005 2:22:39 PM PDT by dangus
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