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To: adiaireton8
On Pentecost, Peter commanded them all to be baptized, including their children. Whole households were baptized (Acts 16:33; 1 Cor. 1:16). Baptism is the Christian equivalent of circumcision, and circumcision was done, as you may know, on the eighth day. From the time of Abraham, it has been known that entering into the covenant did not depend upon being old enough to believe for oneself. The same is true of the New Covenant.

If "baptism" is equivalent to circumcision, it would come as a shock to those who practiced both - ancient Jews. Many "Christians" incorrectly think that "baptism" is a "New Testament" thing. It is not. The mikvah has been a part of Judaism since ancient times. No one was shocked at John when he told them to repent and be immersed. The Temple in Jerusalem had huge mikvot (immersion pools) at the entrance. Everyone entering during festival time (yes, Shavuot [Pentecost] is a commanded festival. Immersion was a part of religious life. The average "Christian" may be shocked to know that it is still a part of Judaism. A ancient ruling said that if a village could not afford a synagogue and a mikveh (an immersion pool), they should build a mikveh first.

So, no - immersion was not a "Christian" invention - and it is not the same or an equivalent to circumcision. Immersion, in the Hebrew Scriptures signified a CHANGE IN STATUS (especially repentance), circumcision signified a CHANGE IN IDENTITY. Not the same then, not the same now.
816 posted on 04/15/2005 5:58:08 PM PDT by safisoft (Give me Torah!)
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To: safisoft
Non-Christians don't get to dictate the content of Christian theology. I never claimed that baptism was a Christian invention. But it definitely was a NT thing, if by that we meant that it is found throughout the NT. For Christians, and in Christianity, baptism is both a change in identity and a change in status. Jesus initiated a "New Covenant", which is why the veil in the temple was torn in two at his death. For Christians, the initiation into the New Covenant is not circumcision of the flesh (as St. Paul teaches in Galatians), but baptism with water, by which the person is united to Christ in His death and resurrection, regenerated by the Holy Spirit, joined to His Church, and forgiven from all sins (original and actual). Christians believe that the baptism of John the Baptist, for example, is not Christian baptism, and not sacramental. One is not regenerated and joined to Christ and forgiven of sins by John's baptism.

-A8

829 posted on 04/15/2005 6:43:05 PM PDT by adiaireton8 ("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
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To: safisoft

The mikvah has been a part of Judaism since ancient times. No one was shocked at John when he told them to repent and be immersed.
*****
Agree....John was water baptising before he met Jesus. For what possible reason did Jesus feel he needed to be baptised. Could it be..because of the original sin passed thru Mary, that he had to defeat and did defeat for us.


856 posted on 04/15/2005 8:51:26 PM PDT by BriarBey
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To: safisoft; Matchett-PI; Dr. Eckleburg

If I hadnt been kicked off the thread I would also point out the significance of the waterjugs in John where the miracle at Cana took place. These too were "washing" jugs, almost as tall as a man, filed with water and a smidgeon of the red heifer


860 posted on 04/15/2005 9:21:50 PM PDT by D Edmund Joaquin (Mayor of Jesusland)
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