Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

To: Binghamton_native
Ok, I think I understand where you are coming from now. So, I think you would say that there are now many "institutional" churches, and yet one "Church". Right?

I suppose you know that this distinction was unheard of before the Reformation. So in your view, for 1500 years Christians remained ignorant of this distinction.

At the root of this distinction is Gnosticism, the heretical notion that matter is irrelevant, and that the elements of salvation are entirely spiritual. Gnosticism was one of the very the first heresies the Church had to deal with, and it is still around. When Christ gave the keys to Peter in Matt 16, He did not give them to an invisible Church, but to a visible, living breathing man. It would make no sense to give authority "to bind and to loose" to an invisible Church. When in Matt 18 Christ talked about resolving disputes in the Church, He definitely wasn't talking about taking the dispute to an invisible intangible body. An invisible Church could not have codified a canon of books that belong to the Bible. So, your use of the Bible (and dependence upon the Bible as an authority) presumes a visible authority. But an invisible Church can have no visible authority. So, your use of the Bible contradicts your claim that Christ did not found a visible Church. The fact that there are some bad eggs in the Church does not mean that Christ did not found a visible Church. Nor does the fact that there are people who believe in Christ and yet are not members of the Catholic Church mean that Christ did not found a visible Church. The notion that Christ founded only an invisible Church and not one visible Church is not found in Scripture. And so it contradicts your doctrine of "sola scriptura".

Newman has a helpful essay on this distinction here,

See what St. Cyril (d. 386) says:

"But since the word Ecclesia is applied to different things (as also it is written of the multitude in the theater of the Ephesians, And when he had thus spoken, he dismissed the Assembly), and since one might properly and truly say that there is a Church of evil doers, I mean the meetings of the heretics, the Marcionists and Manichees, and the rest, for this cause the Faith has securely delivered to you now the Article, "And in one Holy Catholic Church;" that you may avoid their wretched meetings, and ever abide with the Holy Church Catholic in which you were regenerated. And if ever you are sojourning in cities, inquire not simply where the Lord's House is (for the other sects of the profane also attempt to call their own dens houses of the Lord), nor merely where the church is, but where is the Catholic Church. For this is the peculiar name of this Holy Church, the mother of us all, which is the spouse of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Only-begotten Son of God (for it is written, As Christ also loved the Church and gave Himself for it, and all the rest,) and is a figure and copy of Jerusalem which is above, which is free, and the mother of us all; which before was barren, but now has many children."

If you read the Church Fathers on this subject, it is as obvious as day that they did not think Christ founded an invisible Church, but rather that Christ founded a visible Church. Here is a site with a list of great quotations from the Fathers.

-A8

1,270 posted on 04/23/2005 7:24:12 AM PDT by adiaireton8 ("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1258 | View Replies ]


To: adiaireton8

this distinction was unheard of before the Reformation
*****
Wrong....Rome was killing true Christians before 313 A.D. when Constintine united the pagan temples with christianity and called it Roman Catholic. THEN THE DARK AGES..... one of the darkest times known to mankind because of the truth being joined to the pagan lies, and idolotry.

Reformation....once again a glimmer of truth out of darkness, altho they were still daughters and carried alot of the RCC doctrines out with them...they were still breaking free. Rome lost her full power, FOR A WHILE. The light of the true gospel once more would shine on the earth and protestant nations would grow. Nations who are predominately catholic are third world poor, under developed nations and so shall this country be.

The anti-christ..."Once was, is not, and is again."

The "is again" is upon us.


1,284 posted on 04/23/2005 8:41:10 AM PDT by BriarBey ("He Who Does Not Remember History Is Condemned To Repeat It")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1270 | View Replies ]

To: adiaireton8

"But an invisible Church can have no visible authority. So, your use of the Bible contradicts your claim that Christ did not found a visible Church."

Rom 12:5 So we, [being] many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

Col 2:19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.

No, the Church of Christ (not the denomination) is Scriptually invisible, at least to the naked eye but can be seen spiritually. Jesus Christ is the head of the Church and Christians are considered members of his body. Jesus Christ is THEE authority of his church and his body. He did not leave the "keys of authority" to any man or church but himself. Why should he have? Mankind has shown he cannot be sinless so only Christ has those "keys". Thank God.

The word "catholic" means the "universal Church". That's why I never call the Catholic church by any other name than the Roman Catholic church. They are simply a splinter group off of Christianity. Personally I think way off.

You talk like the RCC's are the one and only church and that all others will not be in communion until they join up with the RCC's. That's true but it won't be in communion with Christ as that is the only real Communion.


1,293 posted on 04/23/2005 8:58:59 AM PDT by jwh_Denver (The Good News of the Gospel of Christ really is Good News!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1270 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson