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German ruling says Dresden was a holocaust
Telegraph ^ | 4-12-5 | Hannah Cleaver in Berlin

Posted on 04/12/2005 4:46:09 PM PDT by SJackson

German prosecutors have provoked outrage by ruling that the 1945 RAF bombing of Dresden can legally be termed a "holocaust".

The decision follows the refusal by the Hamburg public prosecutor's office to press charges against a Right-wing politician who compared the bombing raids to "the extermination of the Jews".

German law forbids the denial or playing down of the Holocaust as an incitement to hatred.

So delicate is the subject of the slaughter of Jews under Hitler that any use of the word "holocaust", or comparison with it, faces intense scrutiny and sometimes legal action.

But prosecutors have declined to pursue further the case of Udo Voigt, the chairman of the far-Right NPD, who likened the RAF's raids to the Nazis' "final solution".

Rudigger Bagger, a spokesman for the Hamburg public prosecutor, said the decision took into account only the criminal, not the moral, aspects of the case.

But he cited as a legal precedent a ruling by the federal constitutional court that favoured free speech in political exchanges, if defamation was not the prime aim of the argument.

Holger Apfel, the NPD's leader in the Saxon regional parliament, caused a scandal in January when he shouted down a commemoration of the Dresden bombing, prompting many others to walk out in disgust.

His outburst was covered by parliamentary privilege but Mr Voigt applauded and repeated the statements elsewhere.

Paul Spiegel, the president of the Central Council of Jews in Germany, criticised the decision by prosecutors not to take action. He said the statements were incitement and allowing them to stand opened the door to further such comments.

"Morally, I have no understanding of this," he said. "One can ban such remarks if you use the law consistently. It is questionable whether statements that are clearly incitement come under freedom of expression."

Although the NPD is despised by other parties, German politicians reluctantly accepted the ruling.

Dieter Wiefelspüetz, the interior spokesman for the Social Democrat Party described the phrase "holocaust" in the context of Dresden as an "exploitation of the victims". But he supported the decision not to prosecute.

Attitudes towards the Allied bombing campaign, which killed hundreds of thousands of civilians, are changing. Estimates of the death toll in Dresden in February 1945 hover at about 35,000. All the same, some historians claim that as many as 500,000 people were killed in the raids.

Strictly speaking, the word "holocaust," which comes from the ancient Greek for "burnt", might seem apt for Dresden, much of it immolated by the fires started by the RAF's incendiary bombs.

But its primary meaning is now so closely linked to the Nazis' treatment of the Jews that such etymology appears to be in bad taste.


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: eurotrash
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To: SJackson

I wonder how they(The Krauts)characterize "The BLITZ"(London).How's about Coventry,Southampton,Portsmouth??Shall we go on to Bergen-Belsen,Auschwitz,Dachau?????


181 posted on 04/12/2005 8:14:57 PM PDT by bandleader
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To: pbrown

Glad it's not just me.


182 posted on 04/12/2005 8:15:48 PM PDT by FreedomPoster (Official Ruling Class Oligarch Oppressor)
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To: muawiyah
Well, Tojo was the Minister of War, Head of the Army, and Prime Minister from 1941-1944. He was also a General and head of the militaristic clique that ruled Japan.

But I agree he was no absolute dictator, Imperial Japan was run more on a group or consensus basis, among the Military Leaders, the Emperor, and the ruling families of Japan. A small group but not one man.

The Diet was still having elections during the war, but it was all for show. The average Japanese had no more say over what the government did then a German under Hitler, or a Russian under Stalin.
183 posted on 04/12/2005 8:16:33 PM PDT by rcocean (I just hope that stupid weird talking thing is killed. I can't stand that whatever it is...)
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To: Pan_Yans Wife

"How do they characterize the blitz of London?"

The Blitz was very bad. Dresden was a man-made firestorm of hellish proportions.


184 posted on 04/12/2005 8:17:08 PM PDT by dljordan
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To: schu
As a collateral realtive of mine once said, " WAR IS HELL".

Now, you know it was W.T.Sherman who said that.

So, I figure, if a country starts a war then all they can really expect is HELL! Especially, if they are on the losing side.

So, hitler and tojo start a great BIG war... a world war.

Now, as as a result of their war-mongering, they began to experience, HELL IN THEIR VERY OWN LITTLE CORNERS OF THE WORLD.

I really like what old "W.T." had to say. HE WAS SO ASTUTE AND WISE BEYOND HIS TIME!!

185 posted on 04/12/2005 8:17:09 PM PDT by Lion in Winter
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To: muawiyah
War is defined by Peace.

Au contraire: Peace is defined by War (the Winners determine the Peace).

186 posted on 04/12/2005 8:17:59 PM PDT by Alouette (If I owned Hell and I owned Brooklyn, I'd live in Hell and rent out Brooklyn.)
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To: dljordan

War is hell. What else is new, eh?


187 posted on 04/12/2005 8:22:12 PM PDT by Lion in Winter
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To: SJackson
Dresden was a holocaust

War is hell.

Make that--War SHOULD be hell.

When war is hell, war ends and the peace lasts.

When war is fought like today's politically correct "don't attack the mosque" style, war goes on and on and on and on and on and on . . .

The firebombing of Dresden broke the will of the German people and made them hate war. Mission accomplished. It is too bad we didn't nuke them also. Tokyo was firebombed and nuked twice. The result? Sixty years later, Japan is our best friend and they hate war.

Germany is a sore loser. The stench from France must be blowing across the border and screwing with their minds.

188 posted on 04/12/2005 8:24:02 PM PDT by Dont_Tread_On_Me_888 (John Kerry--three fake Purple Hearts. George Bush--one real heart of gold.)
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To: bandleader
"I wonder how they(The Krauts)characterize "The BLITZ"(London).How's about Coventry,Southampton,Portsmouth??Shall we go on to Bergen-Belsen,Auschwitz,Dachau?????

Well according to some of the pro-nazis on this thread... probably as "a way to rid the world of people who were not Germans".

189 posted on 04/12/2005 8:24:14 PM PDT by Lion in Winter
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To: muawiyah
Peace is much better, and war is only justified in self-defense.

And no one prays for a just peace more vehemently than a soldier.

Semper Fi.

190 posted on 04/12/2005 8:25:32 PM PDT by Centurion2000 (Nations do not survive by setting examples for others. Nations survive by making examples of others)
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To: Dont_Tread_On_Me_888
Tokyo was firebombed and nuked twice.

Of course, make that Tokyo was firebombed and Japan was nuked twice.

191 posted on 04/12/2005 8:26:14 PM PDT by Dont_Tread_On_Me_888 (John Kerry--three fake Purple Hearts. George Bush--one real heart of gold.)
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To: Dont_Tread_On_Me_888
"Germany is a sore loser. The stench from France must be blowing across the border and screwing with their minds."

Minds, they have minds? One could never have guessed it by their elections of such leaders as herr hitler and G. Schroeder( their current leader).

192 posted on 04/12/2005 8:28:22 PM PDT by Lion in Winter
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To: Centurion2000

AMEN, Marine... AMEN!!


193 posted on 04/12/2005 8:29:18 PM PDT by Lion in Winter
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To: muawiyah
We agree totally, while not perfect by any means, the forces of America have been the shining light to the world.
194 posted on 04/12/2005 8:31:23 PM PDT by schu
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To: pbrown
On the contrary, Sherman's March to the Sea and the efforts of the US/Allies in WWII were very similar in their nature. The objective was to break the back of an evil, immoral society. Nazism and southern slavery, untermenschen (sp) and the inferior black, ideas that are one and the same.

Apartheid is an accurate term.
195 posted on 04/12/2005 8:39:23 PM PDT by schu
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To: ozzymandus
Hate to break it to you, but there are a lot of books I haven't read.

I think we were all well aware that you are not, "well read."

From someone who had relatives fighting on both sides in WWII, I am very happy it was the ones on the German side who died.

I also long for the old Chat Channel days when Idiot A$$holes could be placed on "Ignore". Here, apparently we have to suffer fools, such as yourself.

196 posted on 04/12/2005 8:41:50 PM PDT by rock58seg (It is necessary that politicians become aware there are consequences to stupid legislation.)
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To: rock58seg

Well, said. And also amusing.


197 posted on 04/12/2005 8:45:05 PM PDT by Lion in Winter
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To: Lion in Winter
Lion in Winter Sir, my complements and appreciation for your service, I thought I read that you served in Korea.

Your point is great, that the Fascists (Germans, Japanese & Italians) had designs on world conquest and domination, they used violent, terrible means to attempt to achieve these objectives, therefore complaints or accusations about anything that happened in return cannot be taken with any degree of seriousness in light of the death and destruction they delivered. Dresden etal was justice administered.

At the same time, one always needs to be aware that the nature of war is such that it causes men to do immoral things, this is inevitable and unavoidable. Churchill, I believe, spoke and wrote of this. So while they definitely got what was coming to them, it seems to me that we had a higher calling, a calling to free men from the yoke and chain of Fascism, or Communism or Slavery or whatever evil men use to subjugate other men. And this is why the USA is such a great country, because as a people we have consistently responded to that call when it was needed.

BTW, I find the entire Dresden discussion pointless and a bit boring, I am confident our leaders then, and now, did the very best they can given the knowledge and gifts they have been provided. As with any human endeavor, mistakes were made, but so what!

198 posted on 04/12/2005 8:56:21 PM PDT by schu
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To: rcocean
Don't drag Grant and Sherman into this.

I don't pass judgment on Grant or Sherman. But it is well known that they embraced the concept of Total War. That is, the destruction of the enemies civilian stronghold. This may include mostly property, as was seen in The War of Northern Aggression, or it can also include London (The Blitz), Tokyo, Cologne & Dresden..which all suffered terrible loss of civilian life. War is hell..it takes all shapes.

199 posted on 04/12/2005 9:05:56 PM PDT by ExtremeUnction
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To: schu
Regards to you and thanks for the comment about my service. Just did what I had to do just as my brothers did in WWII.

I agree that our leaders did what they deemed best.

Good night... it is well past my bedtime.

200 posted on 04/12/2005 9:20:28 PM PDT by Lion in Winter
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