Replies

"You're assuming Genesis was written by Moses;

Actually, no. Jesus Christ specifically speaks affirmatively of Moses' account of Creation "in the beginning." If Moses' account is good enough for the Creator of the Universe, it's good enough for me. Is it for you?

... an assumption not universally shared by any stretch of the imagination. Personally, my Catholic school taught the multiple writers theory - that Genesis was actually written by several unknown writers. You may or may not believe that, but don't assume everyone else does as well.

"Let God be true, and every man a liar." (Romans 3:4) I don't particularly care what "higher critics" and pompous-assed "scholars" think about a contrivance known as the JDEP postulate, or what incorrect teaching you happened to receive in a Catholic school. No scholar or nun is greater than Jesus Christ. Do you agree?

"Is Jesus Christ credible to speak with regard to His Creation?" Indeed Jesus would be credible for a historical account of the creation of the world if you're a Christian. That said, Jesus wasn't a historian speaking to archaeologists, giving an account of the specifics of creation.

Jesus Christ is the God of archaeologists and the God of history, too, or do you mistakenly believe that any man, whatever his supposed training or biases, knows more than the Creator of the Universe, Himself? The scripture speaks of those who are "wise in their own conceit," and who thereby subsequently wallow in their own foolishness. (Proverbs 26:12). I'll even challenge you to produce one archaeolgical find that contradicts a thing that Jesus Christ or Moses said or wrote.

The context of your posting was in terms of Christianity. My reply to you is in the context of Christianity, also.

He was, however, a messenger delivering a message. He often did so through the use of parables or stories. It's quite likely that the message of Genesis was more important for Jesus than the story/(ies) of Genesis.

Back to question 1: Jesus Christ is God. Do you agree?

If so, then as God, He is also the law giver and law interpreter. He is far more that just “a messenger.” Jesus Christ affirmed Moses’ creation account as part of a response to a matter posed to Him about a question of law. Jesus did not only speak in parables. Do not confuse when Jesus is speaking to a matter of law, and when He is speaking in parables.

"Do you believe what Jesus Christ says about His Creation?" Yes. Do I believe he's saying what some claim he's saying? No.

I think you have a problem with what Jesus said about his own Creation, because you do not appear to believe His own words about the subject. That, however, is a matter you will have to take up with Him, not me.

"The Ten Commandments were written by the finger of God (Exodus 31:18). They are the Law. The finger of God wrote plainly that the entire Creation came to be in the space of six literal days." Which part of the 10 Commandments states that creation came to be in six literal days?

Speaking of the commandment regarding observing the Sabbath: Exodus 20:11: “For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.”

Next question?

Or are these two entirely unrelated things you're trying to join so that credibility from one statement can be handed to another which lacks support?

Jesus Christ tied His personal credibility regarding who He is straight to the writings of Moses (John 5:45-47). Jesus links Himself directly to the credibility of the writings of Moses. That's good enough for me. Is it for you?

Genesis was either written by Moses (a man), a group of men, or by 'the finger of God'. If God wrote it, the God's in need of a good shrink, as per the conflicting sequences of creation contained within Genesis.

Genesis was written by Moses. Jesus Christ says as much. Moses also wrote Exodus. Jesus Christ inspired and spoke through Moses and the prophets. “All scripture is given by inspiration of God….”(I Timothy 3:16), “…holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit (I Peter 1:21), “God who…spoke in times past unto the fathers by the prophets, has…spoken to us by his Son,…by whom also He made the worlds.” (Hebrews 1:1-2)

You have been shown where the book of Exodus clearly says the finger of God wrote the actual Ten Commandments. Six literal days’ creation account is Jesus Christ’s own choice of words. It is a statement of fact in God’s own words. The Ten Commandments is the Law of God; it is not a parable, nor are any of the Commandments open to debate. One accepts them at his pleasure and rejects them at his peril.

Just admit that you choose not to believe Jesus Christ. If you won’t admit it outright, we’ll let your sophistry speak for itself.

If Moses or other men wrote it, then it's only as perfect as they were. I seem to remember a story in Genesis regarding the perfection of humans - or rather, the lack thereof.

Jesus Christ is God, therefore He is perfect as is His opinion of the words He inspired Moses to write. Will you stand there and question Christ’s own credibility on this matter? Apparently so.

"If we agree that question #1 is true, and that God wrote the Ten Commandments, it is equally true to say that Jesus Christ wrote the Ten Commandments. The writer of the Law is clear. Do you believe the writer of the Ten Commandments?" You're really stretching here, but we're right back to square 1. This is known as a Complex Question, and it is a logical fallacy.

We’ll take it then that your answer is, “no,” you do not believe the writer of the Ten Commandments, which means that you do not believe Jesus Christ. But we figured that out earlier, didn’t we?

I am a natural scientist by training and by evidence of professional accomplishments over the past 25 years. I routinely resolve complex questions. I know those who are scientists who try to make things seem more complex than they really are.

I don’t know whether you happen to call yourself a scientist of any accomplishment or not, but I do recognize someone who mistakenly believes he has to make belief in the credibility of Jesus Christ something more complicated than it actually is.

Bluntly speaking it’s a yes or no answer. Either you believe Him, or you don’t.

I see it in the world of science all the time. One’s ego tends to make things unnecessarily complicated. Whether it’s the study of science or the study of scripture, one only begins to obtain understanding of the truth, when one finally masters the ability to put their ego aside long enough to do so.

"Actually, no. Jesus Christ specifically speaks affirmatively of Moses' account of Creation "in the beginning.""

I'm not seeing where it reads that Jesus specifically says that Moses is the author of the stories we see in Genesis. If Moses is the only author, he was quite the confused person indeed, as the accounts, tone, and writing style differ more than you'd expect from a single author.

"I don't particularly care what "higher critics" and pompous-assed "scholars" think about a contrivance known as the JDEP postulate, or what incorrect teaching you happened to receive in a Catholic school. No scholar or nun is greater than Jesus Christ. Do you agree?"

From a Christian perspective, there is no greater scholar than Christ. When Christ comes down from Heaven and tells the world that JDEP is incorrect, then we'll know. Until that time, we're speculating about an event several thousand years ago.

"or do you mistakenly believe that any man, whatever his supposed training or biases, knows more than the Creator of the Universe, Himself?"

There's a difference between not believing what someone says and believing that what they've said isn't what some think. In Catholic school, we looked at the reality of the situation. The words of Jesus were written down by imperfect men years after they were said. The ideas and concepts, we were taught, were preserved by the influence of the Holy Spirit upon the writers.

Now that makes a whole lot more sense to me than anything that says the writers had picture-perfect memories or had their free will and human imperfection suspended for a while by God so they wouldn't get little details a bit off, but that's me.

"I'll even challenge you to produce one archaeolgical find that contradicts a thing that Jesus Christ or Moses said or wrote."

Considering most of the topics were metaphysical in nature, it's hardly surprising that there wouldn't be much around to contradict things said by either. That said, if you take the creation stories in Genesis literally, we're imbred to an impossible degree. If I recall correctly, it takes 24 pairs of unrelated humans to have enough diversity to ensure that children are not born with defects at a rate higher than what's to be expected naturally. If we're all decendents of two humans, then all the genetic malformities we've picked up along the way are the result of mutations. Mutations invariably result in natural selection; the driving force behind the ToE. That one just came full circle. :)

"The context of your posting was in terms of Christianity. My reply to you is in the context of Christianity, also."

My posting was in the context of a person of faith who doesn't put on religious blinders to the world around them. If we've been given a natural curiosity and desire to explore and understand, and we've been given the intellect that makes that possible, then it's tough for me to see how our creator would want anything but for us to find out every little thing about the world around us. Faith in Christ and His teachings and the ToE are not mutually exclusive - so said the recently deceased Pope John Paul II.

"He is far more that just “a messenger.”" Mark 1:2 "As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee."

"Jesus Christ affirmed Moses’ creation account as part of a response to a matter posed to Him about a question of law."

We disagree on this, and this is where the crux of the issue lies. Nowhere does it state that Jesus identified Moses as the author of the creation stories we now read in Genesis. It's quite a leap to get to that point, in my opinion, based on the words given to us.

"I think you have a problem with what Jesus said about his own Creation, because you do not appear to believe His own words about the subject."

I believe we disagree on what was meant by the words in the text, that's all. Christ would be the only one who can clear that up with absolute authority. In the end, neither of us has His authority on what he meant by His own words.

"Speaking of the commandment regarding observing the Sabbath: Exodus 20:11: “For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.”"

Nice try, but that's not the law, but rather the explanation behind it. Quite the oddity, isn't it, that Deuteronomy 5 makes no mention of the creation stories, but instead reveals the reasoning for the Sabbath Commandment to be the deliverence from the slavery in Egypt... Of course, I suppose that two different authors might have two different ideas regarding the reasons behind a Commandment, but that'd be silly because there's just one author, right? Poor Moses; so confused... :)

"Jesus links Himself directly to the credibility of the writings of Moses."

He says He's the one Moses wrote about and that anyone who believes Moses ought to believe Him. Speaking to the audience he was speaking to, whatever texts had been ascribed to Moses at the time would be referenced by anyone appealing to that authority. Regardless of which books were or were not written by Moses, it'd be ridiculous for Jesus to waste time making factual corrections when the message was clear, correct, important, and the entire reason for His being there. He could spend His 30-year life span correcting misquotes, misascriptions, and typos, and then slide into obscurity as the village madman, or He could make use of what He had (a good message) and do what He was intended to do as the Messiah and the messenger of God, which was to save humanity both here and in the Heavens by conquering death.

"We’ll take it then that your answer is, “no,” you do not believe the writer of the Ten Commandments"

I submit that your conclusion is based on a faulty premise because your original question was worded in such a way that it made assumptions with which I disagree.

"Jesus Christ is God, therefore He is perfect as is His opinion of the words He inspired Moses to write. Will you stand there and question Christ’s own credibility on this matter?"

Jesus was a human being, born to a woman. He stubbed his toe, bumped his head, and did all the other little things human beings do. If Jesus were perfect, He'd be just God and not human at all. Human beings are defined by our imperfections. However, that's being rather nitpicky, as we'd agree that when speaking on matters of faith and God, He would have been infallible.

"Genesis was written by Moses. Jesus Christ says as much."

Please cite the passage where Jesus states, "Moses wrote the book of Genesis". Everything else is inference and assumption rolled into a ball of uncertainty with which I disagree.

"Moses also wrote Exodus."

This is a statement, not an argument. If you've got a polaroid of him writing it, please post it. Otherwise, please cite something which specifically and without ambiguity identifies Moses as the author of Exodus.

"You have been shown where the book of Exodus clearly says the finger of God wrote the actual Ten Commandments. Six literal days’ creation account is Jesus Christ’s own choice of words. It is a statement of fact in God’s own words."

So when Moses wrote Deuteronomy, he was just having an off day? Maybe he just forgot? No, he remembered to put in the explanation for the Sabbath... But he said it had to do with Egypt...

"Just admit that you choose not to believe Jesus Christ. If you won’t admit it outright, we’ll let your sophistry speak for itself."

I disagree with what you believe He meant. You can call me names all you like, but that's about the last thing that's going to change my mind.

"Jesus Christ is God, therefore He is perfect as is His opinion of the words He inspired Moses to write."

The message, being the important part of the whole thing and the reason the words were written, was kept right by the influence of the Holy Spirit. Ergo, when Jesus speaks to the message, which He often did, His opinion was that it was correct, which it is.

"Bluntly speaking it’s a yes or no answer. Either you believe Him, or you don’t."

I have no problem with the words of Jesus; I sometimes have a problem with what human beings take those words to mean. :)