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To: Diamond
Thank you again for taking the time to find the collection of verses you cite in support of an asserted Scriptural prohibition on suicide. You also include a separate legal discussion of 'malice' in the context of 'murder' but I will save that for later, since clearly the most important is whether or not there exists any Scriptural prohibition of suicide.

One general comment. As with your earlier list (which I critiqued in #307 above), your source appears to be someone who believes in "proof-texting" in the King James Version. Both aspects of this are problematical.

The KJV is an archaic translation which is hard for the modern user to understand and relies on inferior Biblical texts in both the Hebrew (OT) and the Greek (NT). You should consult a variety of modern translations (never rely on a single one) almost all of which use the better texts.

Secondly, the whole concept of prying single verses from their historical and literary context is, as I said before, hugely dangerous. The chapter divisions in the Bible were not added until 1227 and the verse divisions until 1551. The Biblical materials were written, as anything else, as passages of thought. While the Bible is the inspired Word of God, it was still written by human authors with thought patterns, arguments, etc. Thus, we pry single verses from their context at our peril.

______________

Let me turn to your collected verses. As to your response on the 1Cor 6 and 1Cor 3 passages, you concede that the passages have application to individual sexual immorality and corporate divisions within the Corinthian church respectively, but argue that they could apply to "other sins" as well. While that may be true, you would have to assume that suicide was a sin in order for either passage to have application. Since our purpose here is to find a specific teaching on suicide (not assume one), neither passage is helpful to us.

Ezek 18:4 "All lives are mine—the life of the father and the life of the son. The one who sins will die." Your citation of this verse reflects the context problem. It has nothing to do with suicide or even God's 'ownership' of individual lives. The context is lengthy (18:1 to 18:24) and reflects a major change in prior teaching in Israel given by God to Ezekiel.

Prior to this revelation to Ezekiel, the Israelites used a proverb (v 2) which implied that the sins of the father were visited upon the son. God tells them not to use this proverb any longer because "All lives are mine—the life of the father and the life of the son." meaning that each has a personal relationship with God independent of the other. To make His point clear, God gives a lengthy series of hypothetical examples: a righteous father (vv 3-9) who will live; a violent son (vv 10-13) who will not; followed by a righteous grandson (vv 14-18) who will live. Then God draws the conclusion of v 4 again in v 20: "The person who sins is the one who will die. A son will not suffer his father’s punishment, and a father will not suffer his son’s punishment; the righteous person will be judged according to his righteousness, and the wicked person according to his wickedness." This is indeed the point of God's revelation to Ezekiel; it has nothing whatever to do with suicide.

Ephes 2:10 "For we are his workmanship, having been created in Christ Jesus for good works that God prepared beforehand so we may do them." Here you attempt a two-pronged theological argument that (i) suicide is not itself a 'good work' and (ii) 'Obviously, if you kill yourself you will not be around to do any good works'. The former argument again begs the question by assuming that in suicide is 'bad' in all situations. It is not, but in any event you must assume whether it is or not; this verse does not give instruction on suicide. The latter argument is no more than a statement of the finiteness of physical life. The most this verse can be read to say is that "...been created in Christ Jesus for good works ... so we may do them [while we are still alive], it says nothing of the nature of our death. It simply says nothing about suicide whatever.

Gen 9:4-6 Here you respond to the critique in #307 by arguing that "... the individual as well as the social component is inherent in the statement 'Surely I will require your lifeblood.'" But that cannot be.

Try to make sense of the proscription assuming your gloss. Here it is mutatis mutandis

From each person I will exact punishment for the life of the individual [who was killed] since the man [who was killed] was his [the killer's] relative. Whoever sheds human blood [of a person], by other humans must his blood be shed; for in God’s image God has made mankind.”

The first sentence expressly refers to the killer as another person, who is "his relative," not himself. The second sentence becomes nonsensical if one assumes suicide: "Whoever sheds [his own] human blood, by other humans must his blood be shed [again?]" How could that be?

God doesn't make nonsensical statements. This statement cannot refer to suicide and still make sense. It has to do with murder, not suicide.

Matt 27:5 You return again to Judas with a humorous comment about Judas being "a possibly positive role model." Of course, I did not say that. I merely said that all Matthew says is that "Then he went out and hanged himself." He doesn't say, "[sinfully] hanged himself" or "hanged himself [which was wrong]". He simply is recording what happened. [Although Luke reported that Judas died in a fall on his ill-purchased land (Acts 1:18)]

And does anyone doubt that Judas deserved the death penalty for his acts of betrayal? Matthew was not about to try and expound about Judas' suicide being undeserved or wrong. It was not.

____________

I'll be happy to deal with any other passages you might cite, but I think it is clear that the Bible simply does not proscribe suicide. Our cultural intuitions that 'suicide is a sin' are simply holdovers from the corrupt "traditions" which are non-biblical. They do not come from the Bible; they come from corrupt human institutions.

Thanks again for your diligent efforts. I hope that many here are motivated to read carefully what the Bible has to say for itself.

362 posted on 04/16/2005 8:34:39 AM PDT by winstonchurchill
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To: winstonchurchill
 1THE EARTH is the Lord's, and the fullness of it, the world and they who dwell in it.

    2For He has founded it upon the seas and established it upon the currents and the rivers.

    3Who shall go up into the mountain of the Lord? Or who shall stand in His Holy Place?
Psalm 24:1-3

I likewise thank you for you very considerate responses to me

Let me start by saying that I actually agree with your very careful explication of the contexts of the passages in question. You may wonder then why I don't agree with you, but I would just say that there are in Scripture broader concentric circles of context, if you will, expanding outward from the specific passage in question that provide patterns, principles and applications for how we should live (and die). Let me say again, I do not disagree with your statements of the contexts of the passages. They are right on the mark, as far as they go.

Let me tackle Ephesians 2:10 again.

Ephes 2:10 "For we are his workmanship, having been created in Christ Jesus for good works that God prepared beforehand so we may do them." Here you attempt a two-pronged theological argument that (i) suicide is not itself a 'good work' and (ii) 'Obviously, if you kill yourself you will not be around to do any good works'. The former argument again begs the question by assuming that in suicide is 'bad' in all situations. It is not, but in any event you must assume whether it is or not; this verse does not give instruction on suicide. The latter argument is no more than a statement of the finiteness of physical life. The most this verse can be read to say is that "...been created in Christ Jesus for good works ... so we may do them [while we are still alive], it says nothing of the nature of our death. It simply says nothing about suicide whatever.

I think the first prong of my argument here that suicide is not itself a 'good work' is a properly basic belief. I base it on the principles of God's ownership of my life, and the proscriptions against murder. Nevertheless, even if it is a only defeasible inference, meaning that it could be defeated by positive evidence against it, e.g., some Biblical instruction approving or commanding the practice it is still a properly basic belief absent such evidence. Since the Bible, as you say, warrants our careful reading of what it has to say it seems noteworthy that there is no mention of the goodness of the practice anywhere in the universe of the Bible. The few instances of its practice are associated with evil men. You will say that this is an argument from silence, but I think it would be a very odd silence indeed from Scripture that is God-breathed and is profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for EVERY GOOD WORK. I hope I don't get flamed for saying this by my R.C. FRiends, bless their hearts, but when they tell me that praying to the Virgin Mary, or believing in her immaculate conception or assumption are good works, I ask where that rule of faith is in the Bible. And regarding (ii) 'Obviously, if you kill yourself you will not be around to do any good works', it is more than a neutral statement of the finiteness of life if a positive action is taken to shorten that life, which is what what suicide is by definition. Again, the overarching principle is that your life is not your own to do with as you please if God owns you. If suicide is wrong, and you do it, then you would be encroaching into the sphere reserved for God's decision, which would be a form of rebellion against the Creator's authority. That type of decision should be based on something more than Biblical silence, which is what I think, at least, your position is on the Biblical texts.

Now, with regard to Genesis 9:5,6. (btw, I do use multiple translations - I am not wedded to the KJV.) It is apparent that portions of this passage refer to the killer as another person, but at least one Jewish commentary (linked at #302) says the following about verse 5:

Each phrase of the immediately preceding passage, "The blood of your lives will I require; from the hand of every beast will I require it, and from the hand of man, from the hand of a person's brother, will I require the life of man," provides a related rule. "From every beast will I require it" promises punishment to those who incapacitate someone, such as by tying him up, thereby leaving him defenseless to the fatal attack of a wild animal. "From the hand of man" assures punishment to those who hire someone to commit murder for them. "The blood of your lives will I require" assigns punishment to those who commit suicide. These pronouncements, which refer to heavenly imposed punishment, apply not only to direct acts of murder or suicide, but also to acts which indirectly cause the loss of life."
This interpretation seems eminently reasonable to me, especially because it agrees with my position.:^)

I reiterate that you are not your own. You did not cause yourself to come into being. God did. The number of your days is in His hand.

Your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.
Psalm 139: 16

Cordially,

373 posted on 04/16/2005 9:03:03 PM PDT by Diamond (Qui liberatio scelestus trucido inculpatus.)
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