Posted on 04/12/2005 7:20:07 AM PDT by kcvl
Schiavo's 'Dr. Humane Death' Got 1980 Diagnosis Wrong By Jeff Johnson CNSNews.com Senior Staff Writer April 12, 2005
(CNSNews.com) -- A neurologist hired by Michael Schiavo to confirm that his wife Terri was in a persistent vegetative state said he was "105 percent sure" of that diagnosis, but Dr. Ronald Cranford expressed similar certainty about a patient he examined in 1980 who later regained both consciousness and the ability to communicate.
Three days before Terri Schiavo's death, Cranford appeared on the MSNBC talk program, "Scarborough Country," to discuss her condition. Cranford was interviewed by reporter Lisa Daniels.
http://www.gopusa.com/news/2005/april/0412_schiavo_doctor1.shtml
No, but on the "probability of ascertaining truth" scale, I will place our civil justice system about 32 rungs above -- oh, say -- you. You don't care about facts, only preconceived notions of desired outcomes.
And still having trouble getting around to answering the big "H is for Hypocrisy" question of the day, are we? I know, you're very busy with all these redundant posts of yours. But here it is again: If you were in Terri's condition (whatever it was), would you want more slurry pumping, bedsores and diapers or to be allowed to die? Just for yourself, now. No one else.
Then, if you don't vote for more indefinite years of slurry pumping, bedsores and diapers, how can insist that that's what she had to suffer for your ideology?
I'm sorry but my computer doesn't seem to want to play videos. I just get pages of funny looking characters.
I don't know if it is the same video, but I know respondents put at least one video (and maybe more) into evidence, which means that Judge Greer and at least the Florida Court of Appeal and the Florida Supreme Court saw it. If it was yours, why didn't it persuade even one judge on all those courts? Even one?
Oh right. I forgot. World's largest conspiracy?
Know what? I'll answer that. IF I were in Terri's condition, I WOULD WANT TO LIVE!!!!! Bedsores (which she didn't have), diapers, etc. That's got to be better than starving to death!
NOW - will you PLEASE watch the video I sent you????
Thanks! Finally you answered! I heard that Greer couldn't watch the videos, as he is legally blind, so he couldn't even have considered them as evidence. IF there is a way for you to somehow watch this one, especially, will you do it? IT's so important - it's the one where Terri is actually responding to her father, laughing with him, regarding her Lazy Eye. He's asking her if she remembers teasing her mother with her eye (she used to move it a certain way), and Terri starts laughing and says, "Yeah", and keeps laughing, CUZ SHE REMEMBERED!!!! Does that sound like someone who is PVS to you??
Well, I wouldn't say, "world's largest conspiracy", but I would definitely say, CONSPIRACY!!! Why don't you check out the site, theempirejournal.com. Read some of the articles that are linked on the right side - you'd be amazed at the conspiracy! I'd love to hear back from you after you look at it. Thanks
I can't see videos on my computer. I'm sorry. I also have no speakers, so even if I could somehow download a program to run video you linked, I couldn't hear it.
You remind me of Hillary. There is no conspiracy involving several dozen judges who have probably never even met. They are just applying the law.
This is not some area of "constitutional law" where you make it up as you go along. This is an area with lots and lots of precedent with well-established rules and standards. That's why you see Republican judges (like Judge Greer) and Democrat judges (like Whittemore) coming out at the same point. Actually, only two Clinton appointees at the federal Circuit Court of Appeals voted to even do another hearing. Everyone else -- Republican and Democrat alike -- saw this case for what it was: legally simple, emotionally complex.
You sound like Judge Greer. He couldn't see them either and turned off the sound on some of them, too.
I only saw one do that, but no matter. What is more important is what did that dissenter say that everybody else ignored?
Well, I give you credit for consistency. That would most certainly not be my choice. That to me is not living, but it is your choice. My suggestion is write it down in a living will: "keep me physically alive no matter what." It will save problems later.
From a trusted friend of mine who saw the full length videos.
Posted by phenn to bjs1779
On News/Activism 04/15/2005 4:52:10 PM CDT · 53 of 66
As far as I can tell, he examined her on two occasions. That is because in one, she is wearing some kind of frock and is in her bed. The other time, she's wearing a red t-shirt and is in a chair.
She's certainly alert throughout. She doesn't pay attention to him at first. At one stage, though, he gets up to grab something on the other side of the room and she watches every move he makes.
He got her arm, severely contracted, to relax. She starts grinning at him. He puts a swab with a nasty scent on it in her mouth and around her nose and she reacts like she's going to belt him. He talks to her and she responds with verbal replies. Not language per se, but different sounds.
Oddly enough, I almost feel she was more on game with Cranford. Then again, he did bark at her quite a bit.
Welcome back. You know, one thing about this business of 'self-evident' videos. Suppose this case came before a different judge who said, "You know, I don't need all that fancy 'doctor-talk' just show me some video and I'll decide for myself." What would you think of that?
As a lawyer I've had a couple of those moments where some judge said he didn't need expert testimony in some complex field and I had to search for diplomatic words to explain why he did. I wouldn't want any judge who thought he could "intuit" some complex determination from watching a video or doing personal observation. {You might want to watch the video or do the observation in order to formulate questions for the experts -- but decide on your own, too risky for my blood.)
Winston - did you read my post #325. I wish you would and answer my question. Does that sound like PVS to you. Also, what is YOUR understanding of PVS? I've heard the definition for FL is that there is NO reaction whatsoever. HOW can Terri be PVS when she reacts????
On average, videos don't lie. Hired death doctors do.
Try to think of it this way. If a person is on the ground and a grave is dug. All they need is a judge to say that that person is dead before they throw that person in her grave. But, someone has a video of that person moving though. The doctors tell the judge she is most assuredly dead, don't pay attention to the movements.
What should happen next? Mind you, not ONE Judge has ever seen Terri Schiavo in PERSON.
I'll pick this post up again when I get home if you're all still here - I'm leaving work now.
One of the truly sad parts of PVS is that the subject appears to act responsively when he is really acting reflexively. I don't want to hurt your feeling, but no one -- on any side of the issue -- has ever contended that Terri could say even the simplest word. She made sounds, that's it.
So, when you say you heard her say "Yeah", either the tape was augmented or you heard what your heart wanted to hear.
Then you supply reasons for her supposed response ("cuz she remembered"). We often do that with favorite pets, ascribe complex human thought patterns to annotate behavior we observe. Again, I don't want to hurt your feelings but Terri could not remember anything. That part of her brain didn't exist any more.
So, no, sadly, I don't think a video tape -- no matter how touching it might appear -- could rebut the existence of PVS in Terri.
Let me say one other thing, because something in the tone of your post touched me. Many of us have been inspired when we have met people of the "God gave me a lemon, so He must have wanted me to make lemonade" school -- young people who have been paralyzed, young parents who have brain-damaged children, etc. I have seen the immense desire to see improvement. It is very hard to live in the face of such things and never see improvement.
Yet, that really was the circumstance with Terri. Now, we see embittered people trying to explain the lack of improvement by villainizing the husband or the doctors or the court or whatever. The hard part is that poor Terri never got any better and was never going to get any better. Not because of evil people, but because, as the Florida Court of Appeal said movingly,
"At this point, much of her cerebral cortex is simply gone and has been replaced by cerebral spinal fluid. Medicine cannot cure this condition. Unless an act of God, a true miracle, were to recreate her brain, Theresa will always remain in an unconscious, reflexive state, totally dependent upon others to feed her and care for her most private needs. She could remain in this state for many years.
Most PVS patients live only 2-5 years, so the agony of Terri's 15 years of no improvement understandably multiplied the frustration. But reality has to intrude here.
One of the reasons Terri's case was such an emotionally wrenching one was because it was at the hard margin of human ability to improve terrible situations. The choices were stark: continue the no improvement scenario indefinitely or let her die. Some, mostly younger, made it a test of faith in possibilities. Others, mostly older like me, saw our own future being interminably lengthened because of an inability to admit defeat.
I sympathize with your heart and admire your tenacity, but I remain convinced that the right thing -- both legally and Biblically -- happened to Terri.
There were people years ago that really had no side in the issue. They just observed. One of them is my tagline. If you haven't read them or seen them before, let me know. I will post them.
Listen, Winston, you really DO need to see the videos BEFORE you expound any further. When you see Terri laugh with her father asking her about her lazy eye, you'll be horrified that she was put to death! If you can possibly do it, go to someone else's computer and go to her website, terrisfight.org, and check out the other videos. Unfortunately, Lazy Eye is not there. BUT, you can't possibly have a rational discussion until you see those videos. Her brain was NOT gone, and she was NOT PVS. Remember, PVS is no reaction at all. Terri not only reacted, SHE RESPONDED!
And, I wish you'd quit saying, we should "let her die". We didn't "LET" her die, we KILLED her!!! There's a HUGE difference.
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