Jay Sekulow: How a Jewish Lawyer from Brooklyn Came to Believe in Jesus

jewsforjesus ^ | 2005 | Jay Sekulow

[malakhi]

There is no Biblical basis for Peter having a Throne on Earth.

The Catholics disagree, and would point to Matthew 16:18 and John 21:15-17, among others, as the scriptural basis for Peter's authority. And other passages which they say demonstrate apostolic succession.

Do you believe that there is a central Christian authority? Someone with unquestioned authority to determine whether or not a belief is Christian? And by "someone" I mean a person or persons, not a text. As we see, texts are subject to varying interpretations. Is there anyone who can authoritatively interpret the text?

In light of God's covenant with the Jews, why do you think that the Throne of David is vacant right now?

It is because of the covenant that the throne is vacant. And it is because of the covenant that the throne will not forever be vacant.

[malakhi]

Are agnostic or atheistic Jews who use persuasion to attempt to convert practicing Jews to their systems of unbelief apostates?

Can you point to any real-life examples of this proselytizing agnostic or atheist?

Even if you can, there is a substantial distinction between questioning or renouncing "Belief A", and actively embracing "Belief B". An agnostic or atheist may lack belief in Judaism, but he has not actively accepted a different religion in its place.

[P-Marlowe]

Do you believe that there is a central Christian authority? Someone with unquestioned authority to determine whether or not a belief is Christian?

Of Course. Jesus Christ. He is the only one who knows who is a Christian and who is not. Christians are to follow him, not some earthly representative.

[krunkygirl]

saving for later

[malakhi]

Christianity was inherent in the message of Judaism before it got hijacked by rabbinism.

"Rabbinism", as you call it, is nothing more than the post-second-temple continuation of Pharisaic Judaism. As such, it didn't "hijack" anything, but rather was the only form of Judaism which survived the Roman depradations of the first and second centuries C.E. It is Christianity which was the novelty, not "rabbinism".

[malakhi]

The proud wanted a political savior.

Rather, Jews expect a messiah who actually fulfils the messianic prophecies of the Hebrew scriptures. Something which you tacitly acknowledge when you state your belief that Jesus will come a second time as judge and king.

[malakhi]

Of Course. Jesus Christ. He is the only one who knows who is a Christian and who is not. Christians are to follow him, not some earthly representative.

Uh huh.

You and a Catholic are discussing a point of doctrinal difference. You say Jesus supports your position, and he says Jesus supports his position. Since you can't take a plane to Galilee to ask him in person, how do you resolve the dispute?

By citing Jesus as your authority, all you are doing, essentially, is smuggling in the "text-as-authority" claim. Is there a living, earthly, human authority? Or not?

[Inyokern]

Many interpetations....most attribute this to being "born again" or witnessing the resurrection and/or ascension.

There is no question the early Christians believed that Christ would be coming back very soon. That is how they were pursuaded to give up all their possessions.

[Inyokern]

When you supply proof that Moses parted the Red Sea, or delivered the plagues upon Eygpt. While your at it, provide proof of the Great flood.

The exisitence of Moses is not as crucial to us as the existence of Jesus to you. We do not worship Moses. We do not make graven images of Moses.

The year is not important, the event is.

The crucifixion is supposed to have happened in an era when record-keeping was much better than it was in the time of Moses. We have documentation for the year of the death of Herod the Great but not that of Jesus. Luke knows the year in which John the Baptist began his ministry but he does not know the year of the crucifixion.

The year, in itself, is not important but, if it had actually happened, the early church would have remembered when it happened and commemorated that date. As it is, the church merely celebrates Jesus' resurrection on the pagan fertility holiday of Easter (Ashtoreth) when pagans believed nature was resurrected.

[PigRigger]

"That is how they were persuaded to give up all their possessions."

Not exactly.

The context of living a more humble life was dictated by the command that there is only one God that should be served, revered, and praised.

Christ warned those that wished to follow him that the lust for money and power (materialism) inhibits one's ability to serve and worship the one true God (Jewish law found in the Ten Commandments). In other words, he equivocated the pursuit of money and power to idol worship. It was consistent with Jewish teachings, and the words of the prophets, than as it is today.

Christ never dictated that a rich or powerful man could not find salvation. However, He made it abundantly clear that material excesses, and the pursuit thereof, can corrupt a man's mind and soul.

[PigRigger]

"The existence of Moses is not as crucial to us as the existence of Jesus to you. We do not worship Moses. We do not make graven images of Moses."

Untrue for Jew and Christian alike. If Moses did not exist, or any of the great prophets of the Old Testament, than the Jewish faith is built on falsehoods on which the Christian beliefs were full filled through Christ's birth, death, and Resurrection.

Through the the written word (the Bible), people witnessed to the accounts that occurred during those times. Therefore, you base faith in those who transcribed that certain persons existed, and that certain events occurred, without concrete evidence in many cases. That is the very same principle that supports my faith that Christ existed, that Christ died, that Christ rose from the dead.

The four Gospels were written as a witness to these events; just as were the books of the Old Testament. Furthermore, the actions of these men after the resurrection indicate that something overwhelming and powerful transformed their lives. Some event occurred that turned simple, scared fishermen and laborers into brave and courageous leaders willing to risk death at any moment. This occurred after cowering and running for their lives.

Unlike your assumed accounts, the Apostles (after the resurrection) did not live a life full of pleasure and plenty. Their remaining days were filled with poverty, misery, and loneliness. Again, they all died, with few exceptions, very horrifying deaths; deaths that could have been avoided if they only recanted what they had stated to be truth. Not one denied what they witnessed. They didn't because they witnessed what they stated; they believed they saw Christ alive after his death. They did not fear the horrors that befell them because they saw death conquered. Your explanations give no support to the actions of these men after the resurrection.

So Luke does not record a date that is acceptable to you. Would that not work against your theory that this Jesus was contrived and really did not exist. If this was a hoax you would think the conspiring Apostles would have at least got all their stories straight before beginning their con game with the public.

As to other timeliness, are you stating that the Old Testament has no ambiguity with regard to historical events? Do any of these apparent contradictions and/or unknowns weaken your faith?

[P-Marlowe]

By citing Jesus as your authority, all you are doing, essentially, is smuggling in the "text-as-authority" claim.

Indeed. Is there a better authority than the word of God?

Is there a living, earthly, human authority? Or not?

And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the Scriptures daily, whether those things were so. (Act 17:10-11)

For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. (Heb 4:12)

[malakhi]

Is there a better authority than the word of God?

Who has the authority to interpret it?

Is there a living, earthly, human authority? Or not?

Its a simple question. A yes or no will suffice.

[Alter Kaker]

Many Christians wouldn't have much of a quarrel with that list.

#s 2, 3 and 9 are cleraly incompatible with Judaism. Look again.

Christianity was inherent in the message of Judaism before it got hijacked by rabbinism.

So we used to be Christians, but only recently became Jews? Huh?

The physical body of Jesus is something that many Christians view (on biblical grounds) as a tent that was created by God for God to occupy, rather than being inherent in God by nature.

In other words, corporeal.

[Chunga]

"...there is a substantial distinction between questioning or renouncing 'Belief A' and actively embracing 'Belief B.'"

Of course there is; let's not get into grade-school logical constructs.

I'll be back later with a detailed response. I have many pressing appointments today.

[DannyTN]

"a Jew who believes in one god ...with no physical manifestation whatsoever"

While it's correct to say that the infinite God is not confined to a physical manifestation, to say that He cannot, nor has not physically manifested is just wrong according to scripture.

Exodus 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live. 21 And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock: 22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by: 23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

Genesis 12:7 - And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him.

Genesis 17:1 - And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

Genesis 18:1 - And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;

Genesis 26:2 - And the LORD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of:

Genesis 26:24 - And the LORD appeared unto him the same night, and said, I am the God of Abraham thy father: fear not, for I am with thee, and will bless thee, and multiply thy seed for my servant Abraham's sake.

Exodus 3:2 - And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

Genesis 32:30 - And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

22 And when Gideon perceived that he was an angel of the LORD, Gideon said, Alas, O LORD God! for because I have seen an angel of the LORD face to face. 23 And the LORD said unto him, Peace be unto thee; fear not: thou shalt not die.

Judges 13:22 - And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.

Isaiah 6:5 - Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.

Daniel 3:25 - He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

Psalms 110:1 - The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. (- David is the writer...Who is David calling "my Lord", that the Lord spoke to?)

Proverbs 30:4 - Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

[DannyTN]

"Matthew 16:28: Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."

Go back and look at 1 Kings before Israel rejected God as King and chose a human king instead. The kind of Kingdom that God had was a spiritual kingdom, where the only earthly government structures were the Judges and councils.

This is the kind of Kingdom that Jesus began, so yes those people did see Jesus coming in his kingdom. Now there will indeed be a physical government as well, but that won't be until the 1000 year reign of Christ spoken of in Revelations as well as Exekiel 39.

[Inyokern]

If Moses did not exist, or any of the great prophets of the Old Testament, than the Jewish faith is built on falsehoods on which the Christian beliefs were full filled through Christ's birth, death, and Resurrection.

If it were proven that Moses did not exist, the Torah would not be diminished any more than Shakespeare's plays would be diminished if it were proven that Shakespeare did not exist. All of the commandments would still be in the Torah. None of them depend on Moses.

On the other hand, if Jesus did not exist, then Christianity would be completely invalidated. EVERYTHING in Christianity depends on the existence of Jesus, so the standard of proof is much higher.

[P-Marlowe]

Who has the authority to interpret it?

But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. (Joh 14:26)

Is there a living, earthly, human authority? Or not? Its a simple question. A yes or no will suffice.

Jesus is living. The Word is alive. The Holy Spirit brings us into all truth.

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come. (Joh 16:13)

As far as who has the authority to declare someone a Christian or not, anyone has the authority to call himself a Christian and any other person has a right to question that declaration. Only Christ knows who his sheep truly are. We are not commanded to follow men, but Christ alone. I trust that if I am faithful in my committment to Christ and that if I diligently study his word, that the Holy Spirit will lead me into all truth.

What authority do you answser to in determining whether or not you are a Jew? If someone in authority were to deny your Jewishness would that affect your standing before God? Is there someone (some earthly human authority) with more authority in regard to determining your own Jewishness than yourself?

[malakhi]

But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

You say your doctrinal understanding is inspired by the Holy Spirit. My Catholic friend Dave says the same thing. Your beliefs conflict. How can I determine who is correct? You both claim divine inspiration, and you can't both be right. Who has the authority to interpret correct doctrine?

anyone has the authority to call himself a Christian

LDS? Seventh-Day Adventists? Oneness Pentecostals? How about messianic believers who deny both the trinity and the divinity of Jesus?

and any other person has a right to question that declaration.

By what authority? Who's to say that you are right, and the Oneness Pentecostal is wrong?

What authority do you answser to in determining whether or not you are a Jew?

The Tanakh, the Talmud, Tradition, the entire body of halakhah and commentary, the sages, the rabbis. Ultimately, klal israel, the Jewish people.

If someone in authority were to deny your Jewishness

Impossible, because I am halakhically Jewish.

Is there someone (some earthly human authority) with more authority in regard to determining your own Jewishness than yourself?

Yes! JEWS (plural) decide who is a Jew. If I converted to hinduism, the Jewish community would be perfectly within its rights to consider me apostate and cut off from the community.

Because he has despised the word of the LORD, and has broken His commandment, that person shall be utterly cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him. (Numbers 15:31)

A non-Jew or an apostate can no more declare himself to be halakhically Jewish than I can declare myself to be emperor of France.