Jay Sekulow: How a Jewish Lawyer from Brooklyn Came to Believe in Jesus

jewsforjesus ^ | 2005 | Jay Sekulow

[Alter Kaker]

And, that is a bad thing because...?

Because there are 200 Christians for every one Jew in the world, and as a result we're somewhat sensitive about losing our identity. We already have a religion that's served us pretty well, we don't need yours, so please don't try to convert us.

[P-Marlowe]

Yay for you, but your Christian scripture is meaningless to me.

The words were spoken by one Jew to other Jews. They thought his words were meaningless too. He responded by stating:

for had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words? (Joh 5:46-47)

[Alter Kaker]

Is Barbra Streisand, or Charles Shumer, or Barney Frank, or Harvey Weinstein, or Barbara Boxer MORE Jewish, or LESS Jewish than a member of Jews for Jesus?

In my book, more Jewish. But that's like asking if Ted Kennedy is more of an American than Margaret Thatcher. You may prefer Thatcher as a person, but when push comes to shove, Kennedy is an American and Thatcher isn't. If you think Jesus was God, you are not a Jew.

[P-Marlowe]

Because there are 200 Christians for every one Jew in the world, and as a result we're somewhat sensitive about losing our identity. We already have a religion that's served us pretty well, we don't need yours, so please don't try to convert us.

If we believe our own religion, it is our solemn duty to try to convert you. Would you deny us our right to practice our religion?

Why don't the Jews try to convert the pagans and the Christians? If your religion is true, one would think you would want to convince as many people of the truth of that religion as possible. Instead the typical response to Christian evangelicalism is to bury your head in the sand and pray that the evil Christians won't come and shake your faith and steal your identity. Then the funny thing is that whenever a Jew finds peace in Jesus, you reject him and no longer number him among your people.

If Judaism holds the truth, then where are the Jewish evangelists? Why don't Jews seek to find converts among the gentiles? Is this a private club?

[sauron]

Please help me understand something, if you would.

Judaism predicted the coming of a Messiah.

I had a Jewish friend some years back, he made the statement that "we're tired of waiting for a Messiah, and have given up looking." I was more than a little shocked by his point of view.

What is the Jewish perspective on this? Were the ancients WRONG, that there WILL NOT BE a Messiah? Why is this apparently ignored by Jews of the modern era? Have they truly given up?

Thanks in advance.

[sauron]

Are you going to acknowledge that the original Hebrew-Christians all became extinct by approximately 300 AD? That there has been no continuous Jewish-Christian denomination since that time?

To my knowledge, you are correct, but I'm not a scholar.

...and to which I might reply, "the rejection of Christ the Messiah was foretold in advance by Jewish prophets centuries before he came. His own people rejected him, just as predicted."

So...you've just made the point for the opposition argument on that one, Alouette. ;)

Peace.

[Alter Kaker]

If we believe our own religion, it is our solemn duty to try to convert you. Would you deny us our right to practice our religion?

Your right to practice your religion continues up to the point where ours begins. You have no more moral right to inflict yourselves on us than you would have to boil us and eat us if your religion sanctioned cannibalism. Nor is our opposition to your conversion efforts any more a denial of your rights than our opposition to being eaten.

Why don't the Jews try to convert the pagans and the Christians?

Because we don't believe we need to. God make a convenant with us. If He had wanted to make a covenant with all the world, he would have.

Is this a private club?

God said to Abraham, As for you, you shall keep my covenant, you and your offspring after you throughout their generations.

Yes, sounds like a club to me. Sorry.

[Bella_Bru]

If Judaism holds the truth, then where are the Jewish evangelists? Why don't Jews seek to find converts among the gentiles? Is this a private club?

Truth has nothing to do with the non evangelizing issue. For one, we have been treated rather poorly at the hands of so-called Christians for many centuries. Always trying to love us to death, you are. Keeping to ourselves has worked better.

But the main reason we do not go around knocking on doors annoying people and telling them they are going to burn in hell, or whatever else we can come up with in order to scare them into conversion, is that Judaism does not teach that gentiles must live by Jewish Law. You can still get to heaven without being a Jew. Only Jews are bound by Jewish Law.

And potential converts are turned away by rabbis in the beginning. They are discouraged at every turn. Those that truly want it pursue it.

Would you deny us our right to practice our religion?

No, even though you might wish to deny us ours under the guise of "saving our souls".

Some Christians also get a little huffy over laws in Israel that outlaw proselytizing to minors. Guess that parental authority doesn't mean anything when you are on a "mission", eh?

[sauron]

Great post, very informative, and it informs me about your point of view as a Jew.

As a Christian I found it an interesting read.

Now...we're dialogin'!

;)

[DannyTN]

"However, I do not believe that. Paul's behavior, as described in the New Testament: waiting 3 years from the time of his vision of Jesus until the time he goes to meet Peter, makes me very suspicious that Paul ever truly believed Jesus was a real person. "

That's not unlike Moses waiting 40 years from the time God called Moses to lead Israel out of Egypt before Moses actually went to lead Israel out of Egypt.

God had a lot of training yet of Paul to do before He sent Paul to Peter.

[Twinkie]

I already see Him as Saviour. If we don't see Him NOW as Saviour, at that time (on Judgement Day) would be too late.

[PigRigger]

Rather than reply to your itemized list as to why you believe Jesus was not the Messiah I'd rather get your impressions on the behavior of his followers after the crucifixion of Christ.

It is clear that the disciples of Jesus feared for their lives when Jesus was arrested and tried. Three days after Christ's death something happened that inspired his followers to find the strength to speak out. The question is, what caused the transformation?

To a Christian it is obvious. After seeing their Rabbi put to death the disciples fled assuming the same fate awaited them if they were to be captured. Realize, these were very simple men; fishermen mostly, they were not trained in the way of warfare or civil disobedience. They, in all likelihood were not the type to seek revenge against those that killed Christ. So why did they, after fleeing for their lives, step back into the light? Where did they find the courage and the bravery to come out of the shadows? Where did they find the courage that other false Messiah's before could not inspire?

To a Christian it is very obvious. After witnessing the crucifixion the disciples probably rationalized that Jesus was just another in a long line of failures; they felt abandoned and misled. However, on the third day all of that changed.

The Majority of the disciples died horrible deaths. They were hunted and brutalized for their beliefs. Paul was one of those who terrorized the early Christians. Yet, even he came to believe Christ was the promised Messiah. It is clear that many of the disciples could have saved their mortal lives by just recanting what they espoused to be true, but they didn't. So the question is why?

Is it because they had this grand scheme to create a new religion? Did they think that if they lied they could convince enough people to follow them and elevate them to some sort of power and/or status? Again, what did they hope to accomplish when so many had failed before them?

It certainly wasn't for the power and status. The disciples lived very hard and humble lives; they rejected the ways of world and were despised during their life time. It is hard to believe that they were all tricked. That would mean that Christ really did not die. Hard to believe given the accounts of the crucifixion.

What I believe, as a Christian, is that they witnessed the risen Christ. After experiencing such a thing, death would hold very little in the way fear over them.

But as someone who does not believe in Jesus as the Messiah, how would you explain their transformation from frightened timid men to ones that would change the course of history?

[jla]

I was reading thru this thread, seen a few of your posts and just thought I'd say "hi".

Guess who

[sauron]

And no, I don't need your messiah. I am not interested in someone who needs 2 tries to get it right.

Wow. Let it be noted that the vitriol didn't come from the Christians...read the thread from post #1 onward, and note where the vitriol started.

I was never even aware of the hatred others had for Christians until I was in my mid-20's...until then, I had been raised to understand that Christians and Jews were the best of friends, because I'd always had Jewish friends. When I was seven, I was being taught the Hebrew alphabet, which I mistook for a code, and I, in turn, taught my friend my own cipher code. ;)

Getting back to the "2 tries" thing: I would note the following: Moslems believe in a God you can never know, an unfathomable, impersonal god, one forever distant from mankind. The Jews believe in a holy (kadosh? Please forgive my phonetic spelling) 3x kadosh G-d, who loves mankind, but cannot be properly called "father," as it's too personal, even disrespectful. The Christians believe that God should properly be called "father" (Abba) as Christ taught us, and that he's primarily a holy and then loving God who loves us as a parent loves a child.

Notice how the Moslems are at one extreme in their depiction of God, the Christians are the other, and the Jews in the middle?

How like the Moslems the Jews sometimes seem to be, wanting a powerful, conquering Messiah (Mahdi?). It makes no sense: God has seemed to operate contrary to that (most of the time) and would seem, if I dare say this, and I do not mean to offend, to want to offer gentle, persuasive invitations to come to Him before He resorts to compelling force. It seems consistent with our understanding of God, wouldn't you say?

A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still. God doesn't need robot slaves, which is what He'd get if he forced Himself on us. Wouldn't He send a Messiah that preached love, compassion? Wouldn't that upset the Jews of that time, who sought a conqueror, to save them from the predations of a pagan Rome? I know I'd prefer that, had I lived then.

Doesn't it make sense that God would offer his hand to us, and that all we need do is accept it? Much like a parent/child spat, it's never the child who uncrosses his arms and stops pouting, giving up the grudge, but it's the more mature party, the parent, that has to demonstrate forgiveness and give a kiss to the child to heal the hurt?

The first overture of kiss-and-make up in a family comes from the parent. Children don't know how to heal a division, it must be taught via demonstration. God has done this for us.

God is our collective parent. He wants us to come to Him.

I also think that it's not a coincidence that God chose a people who sat astride the land bridge to three continents. He wanted His message out, disseminated. He wanted to civilize us, and He used the Jews to aid in that. My $0.02.

Peace.

[free_life]

MEGA PROSELTYZING SOUL SNATCHING MISSIONARY BARF ALERT.

Have you ever noticed that Jews and anyone else who takes the effort to the actually read the prophecies concerning the Messiah end up finding Jesus as Messiah. It is G-d's truth that snatches their souls, give it a true test my friend instead of just believing the teachings of others.

As far as proselytizing. Judaism has never brought G-d to others which is why Judaism is what it is. G-d had intended for the Hebrew people [His people] to take Him [share Him] with others, and they still don't get it. Read Arbramic covenant, study all G-d said about, how He would bless His chosen people if they ______ what? To do what they were chosen to do, take the knowledge of G-d to all other people. Don't take my word for it ...read ...research it ...that is if you want to really know the truth. And don't get mad at me for pointing out the truth to you.

Try:
Gen 12:3
Gen 15
Gen 17:4,5,6,16
Ps 67
** 1 Chron 16
Is 49:6

G-d is still waiting for His chosen people to do what He chose them to do. Most [?] evangelical Christians get it and have chosen to bring G-d to the world and have gotten the job by not rejecting the Jewish Messiah - Jesus - Yeshua.
As for the Trinity, the Hebrew people once understood that too. Example: Gen 1:26 And God said: 'Let us make man in our image, after our likeness............

OUR likeness ....OUR image

Elohim is often plural.

Ps 2

Pro 30:4 Who has ascended into heaven, or descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has bound the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name, and what is His Son's name, If you know?

What is His Son's name? Com'on this is not difficult to research, if you really want G-d's truth. A lot depends on you finding the answers, don't just brush it aside, your eternity is about to start. WHAT IS THE NAME OF G-D'S SON?

Name - Salvation - Yeshua ....look it up if you don't believe me! YESHUA !

[Lurking Libertarian]

Because there are 200 Christians for every one Jew in the world, and as a result we're somewhat sensitive about losing our identity. We already have a religion that's served us pretty well, we don't need yours, so please don't try to convert us.

Amen!

[sauron]

In my book, more Jewish. But that's like asking if Ted Kennedy is more of an American than Margaret Thatcher. You may prefer Thatcher as a person, but when push comes to shove, Kennedy is an American and Thatcher isn't. If you think Jesus was God, you are not a Jew.

My mind boggles.

As a Christian, I'm amazed that, after predicting and awaiting a Deliverer, they miss the boat when He comes.

Worse: Anyone who professes a belief in the very Messiah they awaited actually makes them a non-Jew!

That said...good discussion, all. Some excellent points made, and a lot's being learned. At least we're not talking past each other.

Oh, and I would not say (even for a minute) that a Christian, or anyone, has the right to define one's Jewishness. That's for Jews to decide, as is only proper. (We Christians rightly get upset when Mormons, for example, try to make a claim of being Christian.)

Though I disagree with the conclusion of Judaism about the Messiah, I agree with virtually everything else that I do know about it, and were I not Christian (say, Jesus hadn't come), I'd convert to Judaism. Seriously. I think most Christians would, were that the case.

Peace.

[cicero's_son]

Wow. Let it be noted that the vitriol didn't come from the Christians...read the thread from post #1 onward, and note where the vitriol started.

Ain't that the truth.

By their fruits, and all that.

[ladyL]

Elohim echad not yachid

[sauron]

Wonderful thread.

Because of the intelligent discussion, I haven't gotten hardly ANY WORK DONE TODAY...and it's all your fault! ;)