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To: leenie312
You are right in one thing...I am no longer indoctrinated in the catechism...

Stop kidding yourself, you never learned it to begin with and since your departure the only thing you've accomplished is the drinking of the faith is all I need Kool-Aid.

Jesus made atonement for our sins on the cross...it doesn't say anywhere in the Bible to abase myself to help the process along. Confess your sins and you will be forgiven. No other act or work needs to be done.

Jesus' sacrifice gave back to mankind the opportunity to enter heaven which was taken away from him by the actions of Adam and Eve. His death didn't give you carte blanche to commit sins without being punished for them just so long as you "believe". You are still required to perform penance, atone for your sins, convert your heart and show contrition as Scripture repeatedly states. Pay particular attention to Jesus' instructions to perform penance for ones sins.

"Let him do penance for his sin," Leviticus 5:5

"AND in those days cometh John the Baptist preaching in the desert of Judea. And saying: Do penance: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." John 3:1

"Bring forth therefore fruit worthy of penance." John 3:3

"I indeed baptize you in the water unto penance, but he that shall come after me, is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear; he shall baptize you in the Holy Ghost and fire." John 3:11

"From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say: Do penance, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." Matthew 4:17

"Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein were done the most of his miracles, for that they had not done penance." Matthew 11:20

"John was in the desert baptizing, and preaching the baptism of penance, unto remission of sins." Mark 1:4

"And going forth they preached that men should do penance:" Mark 6:12

"And he came into all the country about the Jordan, preaching the baptism of penance for the remission of sins;" Luke 3:6

"Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of penance; and do not begin to say, We have Abraham for our father. For I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children to Abraham." Luke 3:8

"I came not to call the just, but sinners to penance." Luke 5:32

"Woe to thee, Corozain, woe to thee, Bethsaida. For if in Tyre and Sidon had been wrought the mighty works that have been wrought in you, they would have done penance long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes." Luke 10:13

"No, I say to you: but unless you shall do penance, you shall all likewise perish." Luke 13:3

"No, I say to you; but except you do penance, you shall all likewise perish." Luke 13:5

"I say to you, that even so there shall be joy in heaven upon one sinner that doth penance, more than upon ninety-nine just who need not penance." Luke 15:7

"So I say to you, there shall be joy before the angels of God upon one sinner doing penance." Luke 15:10

"But he said: No, father Abraham: but if one went to them from the dead, they will do penance." Luke 16:30

" Take heed to yourselves. If thy brother sin against thee, reprove him: and if he do penance, forgive him." Luke 17:3

"And that penance and remission of sins should be preached in his name, unto all nations, beginning at Jerusalem." Luke 24:47

"But Peter said to them: Do penance, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins: and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." Acts 2:38

"Do penance therefore for this thy wickedness; and pray to God, that perhaps this thought of thy heart may be forgiven thee." Acts 8:22

"John first preaching, before his coming, the baptism of penance to all the people of Israel." Acts 13:24

"And God indeed having winked at the times of this ignorance, now declareth unto men, that all should every where do penance." Acts 17:30

"Then Paul said: John baptized the people with the baptism of penance, saying: That they should believe in him who was to come after him, that is to say, in Jesus." Acts 19:4

"Testifying both to Jews and Gentiles penance towards God, and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ." Acts 20:21

"But to them first that are at Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and unto all the country of Judea, and to the Gentiles did I preach, that they should do penance, and turn to God, doing works worthy of penance." Acts 26:20

"Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness, and patience, and longsuffering? Knowest thou not, that the benignity of God leadeth thee to penance?" Romans 2:4

"Now I am glad: not because you were made sorrowful; but because you were made sorrowful unto penance. For you were made sorrowful according to God, that you might suffer damage by us in nothing. For the sorrow that is according to God worketh penance, steadfast unto salvation; but the sorrow of the world worketh death." 2 Corinthians 7:9-10

"Lest again, when I come, God humble me among you: and I mourn many of them that sinned before, and have not done penance for the uncleanness, and fornication, and lasciviousness, that they have committed." 2 Corinthians 12:21

"The Lord delayeth not his promise, as some imagine, but dealeth patiently for your sake, not willing that any should perish, but that all should return to penance." 2 Peter 3:9

"Be mindful therefore from whence thou art fallen: and do penance, and do the first works. Or else I come to thee, and will move thy candlestick out of its place, except thou do penance." Apocalypse 2:5

"In like manner do penance: if not, I will come to thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth." Apocalypse 2:16

"And I gave her a time that she might do penance, and she will not repent of her fornication. Behold, I will cast her into a bed: and they that commit adultery with her shall be in very great tribulation, except they do penance from their deeds." Apocalypse 2:21-22

"Have in mind therefore in what manner thou hast received and heard: and observe, and do penance. If then thou shalt not watch, I will come to thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know at what hour I will come to thee." Apocalypse 3:3

"Such as I love, I rebuke and chastise. Be zealous therefore, and do penance." Apocalypse 3:19

"And the rest of the men, who were not slain by these plagues, did not do penance from the works of their hands, that they should not adore devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and wood, which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: Neither did they penance from their murders, nor from their sorceries, nor from their fornication, nor from their thefts." Apocalypse 9:20-21

"And men were scorched with great heat, and they blasphemed the name of God, who hath power over these plagues, neither did they penance to give him glory." Apocalypse 16:9

"And they blasphemed the God of heaven, because of their pains and wounds, and did not penance for their works." Apocalypse 16:11

"And his lord being angry, delivered him to the torturers until he paid all the debt. So also shall my heavenly Father do to you, if you forgive not every one his brother from your hearts." Matthew 18:34-35

Am I missing something here....

You are a master of the obvious.

guess believing that the Bible actually means what it says, is wrong..hmmm.

You mean that book created by the Catholic Church, under the guidance of the Paraclete, from the inspired word of Almighty God only to be edited and abridged by Protestants 12 centuries after the fact? A book which teaches explicitly, implicitly, literally and figuratively? A book, which like the eunuch speaking with Philip in the 8th Chapter of the Book of Acts, you fail to properly comprehend? A book in which the word Bible does not appear?Yes, that book. It would be wise if you want to continue in this debate that you first actually read Scripture and then heed the caution of St. Peter before incorrectly interpreting it.

"As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction. You therefore, brethren, knowing these things before, take heed, lest being led aside by the error of the unwise, you fall from your own steadfastness. " 2 Peter 3:16-17

27 posted on 04/09/2005 12:17:08 PM PDT by A.A. Cunningham
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To: A.A. Cunningham

You mean that book created by the Catholic Church....

Wow..I have learned something new here...I didn't know the catholic church created the "Bible"...nor did I know that the catholic church was around when the book the eunuch was reading was written. I always thought the catholic church was started by Peter...and the book of Isaiah was written by a Hebrew prophet way before peters time. I never realised this. thanks for the clarification.

I guess it all comes down to this ...in the Bible(s) I use the word penance does not appear..the word used in your references is repent in my Bibles...which gives the scripture a totally different meaning. I looked up the Greek meaning for the the word you say is penance..it is metanoeo...it means to repent.... it does not mean to do penance. Also I would recheck some of your scripture references..John 3:3 talks about being born again..and for some reason it is Nicodemus and Jesus talking...not John the baptist.

I also looked up the references for atone..atonement...there are a gazillion of them in the old testament but the ones that are in the New Testament are concerning only Jesus. They are in Romans 3:25 and Hebrews 2:17 and 9:5. 1 John 2:2 and 4:10 I could not find any references to us making atonement for our sins... only references to Jesus being a sacrifice of atonement for our sins. his atonement for our sins is sufficient.

Do you have a concordance? If you do look up the meanings of the words in the original Greek Aramaic and Hebrew..it brings new light and understanding to the scriptures as they were originally written. Without the catholic or protestant bend in them.


30 posted on 04/09/2005 10:01:40 PM PDT by leenie312
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