A Pessah sacrifice in Jerusalem

Jerusalem Post ^ | Apr. 8, 2005 | Mati Wagner

[safisoft]

Abraham and Jacob sacrificed wherever they saw fit to do so

Scripture forbids personal sacfices outside of the Mish'kan [Tabernacle] or the Temple environs.

[safisoft]

God gave TWO covanents of forgiveness

Hmm. Jeremiah 31:31-34 pretty much blows supercessionsim out of the water.

"Behold, the days are coming, says HaShem, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says HaShem. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says HaShem: I will put My Torah [Law] in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their G-d, and they shall be My people."

Only supercessionism can claim that G-d's Law written down would be different from G-d's Law placed in the mind and on the heart. The Torah of HaShem does not change... only the medium... and of course people's whims and fancys. HaShem remains the same from age to age. Explain that one.

[AAABEST]

Once again, biblical ignorance and bigotry rears its ugly head on FreeRepublic....other than the pagan sun worshipper, Constantine

Along with ignorance and bigotry, you can add "hypocrisy" to that ugly head of yours.

I'm wondering how in the world I've become involved in a debate with pro-animal sacrifice people who consider themselves spiritually enlightened. The funny thing is that you may quite possibly be for real, and not my idiot friends trying to get a rise out of me by posing as cyber-loons.

That's what I get for thinking I've heard everything on FR.

If you people care to charge up a hill and sacrifice and animal, knock yourselves out. I think even the mostly humourless Moslems will get a good laugh out of it.

I 'll be with the "ignorant" Jews and Christians scratching my head.

[SJackson]

If you'd like to be on this middle east/political ping list, please FR mail me.

[tuckrdout]

Forgive my ignorance, but isn't the blue mosque on the Temple mount? Are these Rabbis saying that they want it tore down and destroyed?

[SJackson]

I'm sorry you're so ignorant of your religion that you think that higher criticism is Jewish.

I'm sure some of the objections come from adherents to PETAology, an offshoot of some Tikun Olum practitioners. I shame I can't hang around for the rest of the thread.

[pocat]

Go study the apes you believe you were descended from.

Huh?

[sheik yerbouty]

"Take the mote from your own eye.."

[AAABEST]

Huh?

LOL po. This is the only response I've ever been able to muster afer corresponding with ZC (PS).

He's a good hearted person with a decent mind who stubbornly insists on negotiating himself into some kind of abstract spiritual (and intellectual) orphanage.

It's not completely his fault, he's a former "Catholic" who had the unholy misfortune of being under the purview of Cardinal Law and the hell-on-earth known as the diocese of Boston. This is the well from which he draws his understanding of the faith.

He's given to throwing rocks at times, but he's somehow attached to us.

[azhenfud]

Hebrews chapter nine.

[pocat]

Yes, that's what I've gathered from reading your exchange.

I've personally known some Jewish people with whom I've had bad experiences. Some have even "stabbed me in the back". However, I don't paint all of them with that same brush. I'm sure most Jews are good, decent people.

[E Rocc]

Rabbi Ya'acov Ariel, chief rabbi of Ramat Gan, who was the religious Zionist camp's choice for chief rabbi of Israel against elected Chief Rabbi Yonah Metzger, said this generation is not yet ready.

"Renewing animal sacrifices and building the Temple depends on the spiritual level of the entire Jewish nation," said Ariel. "It makes no sense to talk about it at a time of glaring socioeconomic inequalities in Israeli society, at a time when Shabbat is openly desecrated and hametz [leavened bread] is served in public places

I would call that advocacy of theocratic socialism, myself.

-Eric

[dervish]

Wow! In two sentences you trashed the beliefs of three religious groups, while absolving your own, of course.

I imagine given another sentence you could have added Hindus and Buddhists to the waste heap.

Are you a vegetarian? I only ask because of your seeming disgust with animal sacrifice. Does it bother you that the community often partook in consuming the sacrificed animal? Portions were earmarked for Cohanim (Priests), and for Levites who were supported in this fashion. Of course none of this holds a candle to human sacrifice or pain, if that's your thing.

Let me add that prayer preceded animal sacrifice, was supplanted by sacrifice only for those who could sojourn to the Temple, and remained the only means of worshipping once the Temple was destroyed.

Abraham instituted morning prayer, Yitchak afternoon prayer, and Yaakov evening prayer.

Finally, why is longing for denied access to one's holiest religious site a "fruitless battle?"

I think the "battle" here is a common one that takes place all over the world but is distressing to see on a conservative forum -- your equivalence of Jews and Muslims, and your condescension.

[safisoft]

If you people care to charge up a hill and sacrifice and animal, knock yourselves out. I think even the mostly humourless Moslems will get a good laugh out of it. I 'll be with the "ignorant" Jews and Christians scratching my head.

Clearly, you have not read the Scriptures. Moslems and so-called "Christians" who do not honor the G-d of Scripture need not apply.

"And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the L-RD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the L-RD of hosts, on them there will be no rain. If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the L-RD strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. In that day "HOLINESS TO THE L-RD" shall be engraved on the bells of the horses. The pots in the L-RD's house shall be like the bowls before the altar. Yes, every pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be holiness to the L-RD of hosts. Everyone who sacrifices shall come and take them and cook in them. Zechariah 14:16-21

Go read the last 8 chapters of Ezekiel and attempt to explain them away as well. And yes, you will read of the ETERNAL remembrance of Passover there as well.

Lastly, if you are a "New Testament" only kind of person (I am not), you have some serious explaining to do with the book of Acts. Read in Acts 21 and 22 and explain why Paul is participating in a SACRIFICE in the Temple, not only for himself, but for four others as well? Maybe you never considered it before, but if you know the foundation of Scripture, the Torah, you would know that the Nazerite vow is ALWAYS ended with a sacrifce in the Tabernacle/Temple. Which is why it is NOT a valid vow today... because without a Temple such a vow cannot end. We remember these vows today be not cutting our hair between Pesach and Shavuot (Passover to Pentecost), but we do not make the vow itself. But Paul did, and so did four others to "prove" their faithfulness to G-d and His Torah.

[safisoft]

Wow! In two sentences you trashed the beliefs of three religious groups, while absolving your own, of course.

Well said. Bigotry is not seen as bigotry if your claim to fame is being a member of a religion that almost achieved what Haman could not - obliterating all those JOOOZ. We will always remember Amalek, and we know what he sounds like when he speaks against HaShem and His people.

[AAABEST]

Yeah that's it slugger; those who are think it whacky to run up the temple mount to sacrifice a lamb want to obliterate "JOOOZ". Too bad you're too much the hypocrite to admit you'd rid the world of those pesky mooselimbs in a nanosecond if you had the opportunity.

For the record, I don't want to obliterate Jews, although I'd like to see them converted. Just as I'd like to see the Aboriginies, Germans, Africans, Haitians, Japanese, Eskimos, Moslems, Hinuds and everyone else converted. You're all the same to me, a product of the Creator.

Sorry to prick your balloon, but most of the world doesn't view you as any more special than anyone else.

A summary of your position:

Rejection of Christianity: Spiritually enlightened.
Rejection of Judaism: Bigotry.

Animal sacrifice: Kool.
Anti-animal sacrifice: Genocidal tendancies.

Did you sniff oily rags when you were a child?

[safisoft]

Hebrews chapter nine

Hebrews chapter 11:
By faith he [Moses] kept the Passover and the sprinkling of blood, lest he who destroyed the firstborn should touch them. Heb 11:28

I suppose it depends upon your definition of "faith". You may be like others that think that "faith" is a mental/spiritual thing outside of the clear commands of G-d. It is not. It is about DOING things G-d's way. Remembering redemption is what Passover is about. It is about LIBERTY!

But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror; for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was. But he who looks into the Perfect Torah of Liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does. Ya'akov [James] 1:22-25

Not only that, you have been given good examples:

And He said, "Go into the city to a certain man, and say to him, 'The Teacher says, "My time is at hand; I will keep the Passover at your house with My disciples."'" Matthew 26:18

...do this in remembrance of Me. Luke 22:19b

Therefore let us keep the feast [Passover], not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 1Cor 5:8

[safisoft]

For the record, I don't want to obliterate Jews, although I'd like to see them converted.

You are doing a great job at it also. Or wait, maybe you were refering to the more "tried and true" methods of the Inquisition?

For you are a holy people to the L-RD your G-d, and the L-RD has chosen you to be a people for Himself, a special treasure above all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.Deuteronomy 14:2

Better a pauper in the halls of HaShem, then a king in the world of men.

Sorry to prink your balloon, but I am not Jewish. I just worship the G-d of Abraham, the G-d of Isaac, and the G-d of Jacob, and I know that those who take positions like yours not only end up on the ash heap of history, they will face the Judge of the Universe regarding their blessings and cursings. Just a hint: pick the winning side, especially if you have the end declared before the beginning as Scripture has so clearly done.

Rejection of Christianity: Spiritually enlightened.

Did I say that? No, I spoke against the sun-worshipper Constantine. Yes, I am a "bigot" against paganism.

Animal sacrifice: Kool.

No, not "kool" - how about "commanded" by the Maker of Heaven and Earth? Please, get a grip... I can quote Scripture on this... you can't and are on the losing side of a theological argument if you have a problem with "animal sacrifice" and still claim to be a "Christian". Exactly WHAT BOOK are you reading as Holy Writ? It must not be the same one I am reading.

Anti-animal sacrifice: Genocidal tendancies.

No, supercessionism (which is what you are voicing) has a VERY long history of hatred for all things Jewish. Just a casual read of this thread shows you... have outed yourself.

[AAABEST]

Throw all the rocks you like. It's not out of line at all to hold the position that re-introduction of animal sacrifice (especially if done the way these "mount rushers" plan) is silly and defunct... possibly even primitive.

Several people on this thread have asked me to explain scripturally how the practice of animal sacrifice ended, when they know full well that it ended with Christ. Jews thought better of the practice as well... without Christ.

Christianity is not "supersessionism" of the old covenant. God didn't stop loving Jews when His Son died on the Passover.

You mentioned Constantine again. If you had even a limited knowledge of Constantine, you should know that he converted to Christianity and wasn't a "sun worshipper" or pagan (sic) when he ended persecution of Christians. Do you not know your subject matter or do you know the subject matter and yet intentionally distort the truth?

Most likely the former. After all it appears after your last post that you believe sacrificing lambs is somehow Christian.

[dervish]

"re-introduction of animal sacrifice (especially if done the way these "mount rushers" plan) is silly and defunct... possibly even primitive."

Secularist consider all religion "primitive." Secularist consider anything other than evolution to explain the origins of the universe "primitive." Secularists consider all ritual "primitive." Vegans consider carnivores "primitive."

These people at least have the benefit of consistency.