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Suppose we knew Iraq had no WMDs
Jerusalem Post ^ | 4-5-05 | AMIR TAHERI

Posted on 04/07/2005 5:27:24 AM PDT by SJackson

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To: Scarchin
The report clearly lays out how screwed up our intel "communities" are and how bureaucratic hacks are standing in the way of real change/improvements.

And this is news?

21 posted on 04/07/2005 7:50:08 AM PDT by gridlock (ELIMINATE PERVERSE INCENTIVES)
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To: elfman2
I never cared about the WMD in the first place. What I feel was justification for invasion was:

1. Hussein NEVER stopped shooting at US and British warplanes, hostilities were ongoing.
2. He threw UN inspectors out TWICE, he had no intention of complying with terms of the ceasefire.
3. The UN passed 17 resolutions to try to get him to comply, he promptly ignored them all.
4. The regular Iraqi people were being starved to death by the sanctions on things like food, medicine, chemicals for water purification, while Saddam raked in the cash from the corrupt Oil-for-food swindle and lived the high life in his 19 palaces.
22 posted on 04/07/2005 7:51:59 AM PDT by boofus
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To: AppyPappy

The belief in the existence of WMDs kept Saddam in power. W called his bluff.


23 posted on 04/07/2005 8:21:15 AM PDT by massgopguy (massgopguy)
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To: AppyPappy
I don't think even if he had been fully co-opertive that we still wouldn't have gone it. Because even under full co-operation nothing or virtually nothing would have been found, thus we still would have claimed that he was being non-responsive.

Among my peers, once the 2000 election was finalized, we joked that Saddam's days were numbered and that with this administration, there was unfinished business and that it would be done. Wasn't sure why or how, just knew that it was a given. 9/11 gave the reason. But I still believe had 9/11 had not happened, there still would have been some trigger point that would be our cue to proceed. Yes, Saddam was a bad boy and would have tempted fate. And yes, he was a goner was the oath was taken in January 2001.

24 posted on 04/07/2005 8:32:46 AM PDT by joesbucks
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To: joesbucks

I don't think so. I think Saddam was thumbing his nose at the sanctions and agreements. Saddam sought a confrontation with the US and the UN. If he had won that battle, the whole world would have known that we were paper tigers. Saddam was already sponsoring terrorism and we declared war on all terrorism after 9/11. If we had ignored Saddam, he would have become the terrorism kingpin, hiding them beneath his military.

Saddam gambled and lost.


25 posted on 04/07/2005 8:36:37 AM PDT by AppyPappy (If You're Not A Part Of The Solution, There's Good Money To Be Made In Prolonging The Problem.)
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To: SJackson

Except for God, there are no absolutes. A commission that says we were absolutely totally wrong about Iraq's weapons doesn't pass the smell test.

As in anything, there has to be shades of gray regarding what weapons Iraq possessed.

I'm not convinced this report isn't some political document in itself.


26 posted on 04/07/2005 8:42:38 AM PDT by Raycpa
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To: SJackson
Suppose we knew Iraq had no WMDs

Bush's case for war assumed Saddam had no weapons of mass destruction, but was aimed at stopping his efforts to get them.

27 posted on 04/07/2005 8:45:26 AM PDT by Always Right
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To: Scarchin
Unless it's my son coming hme in a casket. Sorry - not good enough for me.

My son will be risking his life in Iraq soon. He and I never thought this has anything to do with WMD and everything to do with strategic control over the mideast.

28 posted on 04/07/2005 8:46:18 AM PDT by Raycpa
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To: Scarchin
I read the report.

Ergo

We should not have gone into Iraq.

='s Liberal logic.

29 posted on 04/07/2005 8:48:19 AM PDT by Raycpa
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To: SJackson

WMD or no WMD. It doesn't matter. Saddam had his troops active shooting at our aircraft in the NFZs. We needed to finish the job from 1991 that Clinton and Bush Senior refused to do or stay there forever.

I think we are in Iraq a bit longer than most of us care, but it has made a significant difference to the world at large and our security. We will leave there, maybe just not tomorrow.


30 posted on 04/07/2005 8:50:46 AM PDT by shellshocked (They're undocumented Border Patrol agents, not vigilantes.)
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To: SJackson

The real WMD in Iraq were Uday and Qusay Hussein. Saddam's reign would have been a picnic compared to what those two would have wrought.


31 posted on 04/07/2005 8:52:33 AM PDT by ex 98C MI Dude (Our legal system is in a PVS. Time to remove it from the public feeding trough.)
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To: AppyPappy
No, we would have gone in. No matter what. Even if he only kept violating the no fly zones or the other UN resolutions. 9/11 gave the effort public backing and support.

The fall of Saddam is the keystone to the Bush doctrine. That doctrine is likely the legacy of the President. And a good one. It probably is the right course of action and it needed to be established if there is ever a chance of bringing the middle east to some sort of westerm style political and social situation.

But to say that Saddam thumbing his nose to weapons inspections caused the invastion IMHO is naive.

32 posted on 04/07/2005 9:10:38 AM PDT by joesbucks
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To: SJackson

Saddam did not deserve the benefit of the doubt. End of story.


33 posted on 04/07/2005 9:11:55 AM PDT by dfwgator (It's sad that the news media treats Michael Jackson better than our military.)
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To: ASA Vet
The commission seeks to prove a negative. Shows faulty intell as proof.

Hmmmm.......What did we find in Libya? What might be in Syria?

34 posted on 04/07/2005 9:16:34 AM PDT by BIGLOOK (I once opposed keelhauling but recently have come to my senses.)
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To: SJackson

To start with the intelligence services are instruments in the hands of the political leadership. Direction as to what to look for must come from the political leadership. What is presented as a failure of intelligence, therefore, may well be a political failure"

Taheri is usually pretty good--but in this case he's absolutely wrong> It's a dangerous idea. You DONT want intelligence direction from politicians because then you are guaranteed to get skewed information. Rather than telling the intelligence agencies what to look for (which often implies a set of attitudes and politically desirable outcomes) you want them to look for the truth--and then mold your political strategies around reality.


35 posted on 04/07/2005 9:18:11 AM PDT by wildbill
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To: astounded
Moreover, Iraq is a large country in which it would be easy to hide even large stocks of WMDs.

and WMDs are small when not in the munitions. All of what Powell spoke of before the U.N. would fit in two large tanker trucks worth of volume. The Anthrax would fit in a typical bedroom unless dried - in which case it would fit in the closet.

36 posted on 04/07/2005 9:29:54 AM PDT by lepton ("It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into"--Jonathan Swift)
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To: Scarchin
All the rest is NOT immaterial. Yes they were defying the resolutions. However - did that justify the actions.

Clearly. there is little to no excuse in not resuming the invasion in 1994 - and the case (for not invading) became even weaker from there. Unfortunately, by then, Clinton had already effectively dismantled the coalition.

37 posted on 04/07/2005 9:32:37 AM PDT by lepton ("It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into"--Jonathan Swift)
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To: Scarchin
Suppose we knew Iraq had no WMDs

Read the WMD report out 3/31. Our intel community screwed up BIG TIME.Suppose we knew that the WMD Report says what it does in order to protect other "friendly" nations as well as a previous US administration who were complicit in Sadaam having the weapons in the first place.

Sometimes you have to simply admit that we don't know what we don't know. Speculation is pointless.

38 posted on 04/07/2005 9:46:00 AM PDT by AngryJawa (Will Work For Ammo)
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To: SJackson
n the late 1930s British intelligence consistently, and often accurately, reported on Hitler's massive arms build-up with the erroneous conclusion that it was primarily aimed against the USSR.

That wasn't entirely erroneous, you know. And this is germane with respect to the current question.

The intelligence game is rife with hindsight - this statement proves it. You always have an incomplete picture of what the opponent is doing, and you always have to err to the safe side. It isn't as if the people in charge of it didn't know that there was a possibility Saddam could be faking the whole thing, but how do you bet if you don't know and the safety of your country is at stake? Especially when at several points he most certainly did possess both WMD and programs, because he used them.

I've read most of this report. The principal bone of contention appears to be undue weight given a particular defector and doubts about his reliability that were communicated but not acted upon. This is, IMHO, an absolutely valid criticism.

But the "what if we knew Saddam had no WMD" question is, I am afraid, not the right one. We absolutely knew he had enriched uranium - the IAEA had inventoried it and two tons of it now resides in Oak Ridge, Tennessee. We knew he had industrial quantities of anthrax spores because UN inspectors had seen it. The latter we cannot find now. That in itself should lead the skeptics to conclude that just because we haven't found it does not mean it never existed.

I think that recriminations concerning this report are misplaced. Certainly such things should lead to improvements in information processing and communications. But to hope that will lead to perfect intelligence offered as a basis of political decisions is a pipe dream.

39 posted on 04/07/2005 9:54:03 AM PDT by Billthedrill
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To: SJackson

BINGO.

Whether or not Iraq had significant stocks of WMDs in 2003 is almost irrelevant, and that was only one of SIX reasons Pres.Bush gave in his 2003 SOTU speech for ending Hussein's regime.

Good article.
`


40 posted on 04/07/2005 9:56:18 AM PDT by AFPhys ((.Praying for President Bush, our troops, their families, and all my American neighbors..))
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