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To: spetznaz; The Iguana; TWohlford; UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide
Unfortunately, you have not posted any support or historical references to indicate that Gelasius, Miltades, or Victor were what we would consider black Africans. You cite the Catholic Encylopedia, but that reference doesn't lend the assertion any support at all. The painting of St. Miltiades you posted is, of course, a modern depiction. Note this article from a website of the Archdiocese of Chicago discussing the "black popes" claim and explaining why it is doubtful.

The idea of the "three black popes" appears to come from modern ignorance that North Africa was in antiquity a part of the Mediterranean world settled originally by the Phoenicians. It's akin to the "Cleopatra was from Africa, therefore she was black" myth. Some web references, bizarrely, even claim that Terence and St. Augustine were black. One might as well say that Abraham Lincoln was obviously a Mexican, because he came from North America.

Therefore, The Iguana is correct: we don't know for certain, but the overwhelming likelihood is that all three were Romans, Berbers, or Punic.

"Africa" was not a continent during the Roman Empire. It was the name of the roman province from the western frontier of Egypt to present day Morocco. Blacks would have come from Nubia via the Nile.

Most precisely, the province of "Africa" was modern-day Tunisia (and essentially what was once the territory of Carthage). Persons referred to in antiquity as "Africans" came from this province. To the east of Africa was Cyrenaica (modern Libya), and to the west was Numidia (modern Algeria) and Tingitana (modern Morocco). You're absolutely right, though, that Romans didn't consider Africa to be our modern continent of the same name.

103 posted on 04/02/2005 10:08:27 PM PST by SedVictaCatoni (<><)
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To: SedVictaCatoni; The Iguana; TWohlford; UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide
One way or the other it makes no difference to me whatsoever. I'm not even Catholic for that matter. And whoever is elected Pope will be alright with me (I'm sure all the prospects are worthy otherwise they wouldn't be prospects in the first place).

As for past Popes including blacks. Well, I based my stuff on the Catholic Encyclopedia. If it is wrong it is wrong, if it is not it is not. It does show (and it was not my only reference) that at least one of the three African popes (Pope/Saint Gelisius) was a black Roman citizen. The other two were probably Italian Romans born and bred in Africa (which was then one of the bastions of the Roman empire), but Gelisius is depicted as a black Roman citizen raised in Rome. Again, either way it makes zilch difference to me whether he was asian, black, aborigine, or white ....as long as he was a man of God and left a mark that was more positive than negative when he left.

Same thing pertains to the next Pope. Whether it is one of the Italians, the Indian, the Nigerian, the Brazilian, or one of the others (the longshots) it really doesn't matter one way or the other. What is important is that he will be someone who was deemed by his peers as worthy for the post (or if someone adheres to Catholic Canon chosen by God ...if someone adheres to Catholic canon).

114 posted on 04/03/2005 12:19:09 AM PST by spetznaz (Nuclear tipped ICBMs: The Ultimate Phallic Symbol.)
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