Playing God with Terri Schiavo, and millions found it moral

Minneapolis Star Tribune ^ | 4/2/05 | Jonathan Law

[rhema]

Would you favor it if the government suddenly quit feeding and giving liquids to the political detainees being held at Guantánamo Bay, because they had become an expensive nuisance? Or would you take to the streets to protest against the viciousness of it?

Would you be in favor if one of our state governments decided to starve to death its prisoners because they had become too expensive to house? Or would you be demonstrating at prison gates or in front of the Capitol -- objecting to the inhumanity of it?

If you believe it would be inhumane and vicious to starve terrorists and prison inmates to death, what about that utterly defenseless woman in Florida named Terri Schiavo, who died Thursday?

How can it have been good policy and good humanity to starve an innocent woman to death, while it's bad policy and despicable humanity to do it to prisoners?

Some "no-thinkums" will protest, "It's not the same issue!" Oh, isn't it?

Some years ago the Florida Legislature decided that if someone is being kept alive by "life-support measures," didn't leave a living will, and the family is divided over whether to "pull the plug" or keep the person alive by life-support equipment, the state courts could hold hearings and a judge could decree what shall be done.

Most folks thought it was a good policy.

It has become a disaster, in fact, which is what always happens when men and women think they are God.

[Diogenesis]

Food for thought.

She was allergic to codeine
per the UNSIGNED certification. Perhaps they thought they could give her anaphylaxis to terminate her before Easter.
Not sure about the latest estimates of cross-allergies between the two closely related molecules though.

Below is Terri's Hospice Certificate for Woodside Hospice House (***)

NOTA BENE: Please notice the following:
1) NO physician signed this Certificate for Woodside Hospice House.

ERGO: Michael Schiavo and Greer acted without a medical license.

ERGO: They had to murder her and cover it up.

2) Look at the "Terminal Diagnosis.
It appears to have been changed after the fact. It was clearly written while the
rest was typed, AND in a handwriting different from the rest.

In medical records, that is a sign of tampering. I bet whiteout is underneath.

3) The Certificate states she will live less than 6 months.
Yet they took $$$ from the insurance company(ies?)
and you know the rest.

ERGO: They apparently had to murder Terri to cover it up.

---

Best guess why nothing happened:

Dr. Gambone (R) and Toast

[ClancyJ]

What do you think it is misdirection from?

[Nathan Zachary]

"We don't know, because the unyielding judge wouldn't even allow her family to try to feed her by mouth, or even to allow them to give her a wet washcloth for her mouth."

That, is something I haven't been able to verify either. (yet) I think the order was to prevent a feeding tube oraly, and prevent people from forcing food and water down her throat, which could be done with something as simple as a straw. I'm sure there must be evidence in the court records which show she could not swallow on her own, chew, drink etc. Forcing food and water is not eating and drinking on your own, but it isn't unreasonable to think that people desperate to keep her alive would not try to, even despite the risk of getting it in her lungs. It will come to light eventually I'm sure. I doubt Greer would be stupid enough to leave himself vulnerable on that point.

[Diogenesis]

Judge Greer's crimes to Murder Terri

---

Law conveniently changed by Hospice where Terri was Judicially murdered

---

MICHAEL SCHIAVO's private Insurance company
JERGER & CENTONZE INSURNACE AGENCY, INC.
Notice how 'insurance' is conveniently misspelled and his squeeze's name is misspelled, too

[kingattax]

"God have mercy on us."

Does a country that would murder an innocent disabled woman and millions of the innocent unborn deserve mercy ???

[Cboldt]

What do you think it is misdirection from?

First, I think it is misdirection because it leaps to a false conclusion regarding guardianship law, and does not make any effort whatesoever to factually express guardianship law. That is a good sign of misirection, although most people who engage in that are followers, i.e., they glom onto what they hear without researching it.

I think it is misdirection from the basic moral question of taking a legally innocent human life, regardless of its mental capacity.

I think it is also misdirection from a dysfunctional judiciary (but not quite as direct as the misdirection that advocates a focus to "we have to change the law," to the exclusion of other remedies.)

I think it is also misdirection form the current imbalance of power, in favor of the judiciary.

In this case, the guardianship canard neglects that from a legal standpoint, the guardian was obliged to carry out the patient's wishes. So, no matter who the guardian is, if the patient's wishes are wrongly found, then the patient's wishes will not be followed.

[robertpaulsen]

"The statement of preferences in either written or oral form comprehends the use of so-called 'Heroic Measures' to sustain life."

Sure, but that's only one scenario. In that case, the patient can even be 100% mentally healthy, but cancer is ravaging their physical body.

"If Terri actually said she didn't want to be wired up to machines (And I don't believe MS on this point) did she include Feeding Tubes to be 'Machines'."

First, I don't know that Terri was that specific when talking about it with her husband, Michael, or his brother, Scott, or her best friend, Joan. That was why Michael insisted that Judge Greer make the decision.

After hearing testimony, Judge Greer had "clear and convincing" evidence that Terri would not want to live the way she was living, and ordered the feeding tube removed.

The bottom line is that Florida law commands that a disinterested and impartial judge determine the patients wishes, based on "clear and convincing" evidence.

If Judge Greer thought that Terri was only referring to life support machines, he would have ruled differently. But someone has to make that determination. If not an impartial judge, then who? A USA Today poll?

[softwarecreator]

I've never seen such emotion-based, illogical, rumor-mongering, half truths, lies, gossip, and innuendos in my three years on FR than I've seen on these Terri threads. I'm actually embarrassed.

Add that to the visciousness and the name calling, people leaving FR for good, etc and it was one heck of an ugly black spot on this, and probably many other boards.

I purposely waited until after the terri threads were going away, or so I thought, before I started posting.

[Nathan Zachary]

In a nutshell- no. Codeine is a different derivative of the opiate based drugs. I already posted the reason they gave her morphine. Newsmax has a copy of the story. No conspiracy there I'm afraid.

[EternalVigilance]

Exit Protocol

Exit protocol
They say in Orwell-speak
But what it is is murder
An early end they seek
Gods they are
They think
But Satan pulls their strings
As into hell they sink

EV

[EternalVigilance]

This thread reminds me why you've always been one of my favorite FReepers.

[Grateful One]

He doesn't break the law........

And of course he wouldn't do it for HIS daughter, now would he? Nope, he would just let her starve to death, just like Terri did, wouldn't he now? And, of course, not worry about the political fallout

---

right?

A man of principle, he is.

[robertpaulsen]

"3) The Certificate states she will live less than 6 months."

That's a requirement for admission to a hospice. If they would have followed Judge Greer's February, 2000 court order, she would have died within 6 months.

As to the rest, what's your point? That the morphine was intended to kill her?

Geez Louise. Why do that? The feeding tube was ordered removed. All anyone had to do was wait. She was going to die.

And you think that morphine is related to codeine and that she would go into shock? And they knew that?

Where's my tin foil?

[ClancyJ]

Gosh - will we ever have a chance in this country?

Now have to add misdirection to my list of things to watch for.

[ARridgerunner]

I think i'll refrain from posting any further fact, which is completely disregarded anyways by those that insist a person with no brain can make concious decissions and deliberate movements.

I insist that not only is it possible, your posts are absolute proof that it has happened.

[rhema]

How was the determination unethical? How was the determination illegal? If you cannot support your statement, tell me why I should waste my time reading what you post?

You have been reading the copious accounts/affidavits of eyewitnesses (third-party caregivers, Terri's friends, et al.) whose accounts of Terri's condition differ diametrically from Michael's and impeach his convenient, belated "recollections" of her putative wishes, haven't you? On this thread alone, FReepers have posted antidotes to invincible ignorance (e.g., #61 and 64). A "reasonable man" (viz. senators and representatives from both parties, including Minnesota Democrat James Oberstar) would find compelling evidence to order a de novo review of Terri's questionable case.

As I said, that review --both of Terri's case, the ethics and conflicts of interest of the judges involved in it, and the larger questions about judicial impropriety -- will come now, even though it's too late for Terri. And it'll come partly at the behest of hundreds of thousands of people like me, who'll be emailing representatives and writing letters to newspapers. In fact, I'll be so busy with that kind of political activism that I'll surely have to diminish my number of FR posts (probably to the approbation of supercilious critics).

[ClancyJ]

Where is your proof?

[An American In Dairyland]

Just some thoughts I've been having about what happened to an innocent, helpless woman on the whim of her husband who was aided and abetted by terrible law, a bad judge and an insane attorney.

You forgot to add his new "squeeze". I refuse to believe the new little woman wasn't sitting beside him at Terri's bedside from time to time or laying with him in bed at night and asking "Michael, when are we going to get married. When are our kids going to be legitimate?" That Jodi Centzone escaped almost all media attention in this is amazing IMO considering the influence all "spouses" have on one another in such weighty matters. The two of them have been together for at least 10 years for Pete's sake.

[robertpaulsen]

True. But if you looked around, there were some blogs that were quite good. Both sides were rational and civil, facts were discussed, links were provided. Very adult and very refreshing.

Here it was unsupervised kindergarten for ADHD kids without Ritalin.

[Nathan Zachary]

"EACH INDIVIDUAL HAS THE CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT TO LIFE, LIBERTY AND THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS."

We also have a right to die in peace, not be kept as a guinnea pig, made to suffer, be experimented on. We use medicine and medical technics to prevent suffering, and long lingering deaths.

It's probably most peoples worst fear of dying, to suffer a long time before you do. We must be careful we do not, in emotional haste, make dying worse than it is. Nobody likes the thought of dying, seeing somebody die. But eventualy we all do.