Whether they're a civilization or not we'll leave to another day. But they lead civilized lives. They can generally go about their lives peaceably. They don't have to fear their doors being broken down in the middle of the night and being dragged off to a gulag. They don't need to worry where their next meal is coming from, nor do they have to hunt it down.
They live comfortable lives in a technologically advanced country that their forebears built, but they'd rather, through pride and spite, throw it away and live under muslim dominiation, was my main point.
And I guess what I'm saying is despite their centuries of protestations to the contrary, they've always been an ignorant cultural backwater with delusions of grandeur. That's what has gotten them to this pass.
Of course, we are in no position to boast. We are not so far down the road as they but it may be too late for us as well, if the wave of ignorance, bigotry, misappropriation, and death turn out to be a tsunami as it appears it might be.