“Human Non-Person” (Terri Schiavo Is Not A Person-Bioethicist Bill Allen)

National Review Online ^ | March 29, 2005 | Wesley J. Smith

[Cincinna]

This is getting more revolting by the hour as these folks disclose their true nature and real agenda.

According to Christian and Jewish teachings the body is alive as long as the soul is present. When the "breath of life" is present, the person is alive.

[winstonchurchill]

To dehumanize one age, albeit the earliest age in the individual lifetime begun at conception of the new 'knitting project' is to dehumanize all the lifetime ... THAT is the position the poster 'winstonchurchill' has chosen to prefer....

I am astounded at the misrepresentation of my position. I do NOT support abortion on demand. This thread is NOT about abortion. I have NOT made a single post about abortion. In contrast, this thread IS about the right of the individual to have his wishes respected and enforced about ending his life after the lost of his cognitive faculties.

You have quoted Psalm 139:13 in which the psalmist states:

Certainly you made my mind and heart; you wove me together in my mother's womb.

Actually, the psalmist says "mind and kidneys" because the kidneys were commonly thought to be the seat of one's emotions and moral character, but most translations (like the NET above) translate this as 'inward parts' or 'heart'. But the important message here is that God 'wove together' the mind and the emotions and moral character and He did so in very early life.

While this is certainly true, it has nothing to do with respecting the wishes of the individual(against the state and others) to end their life upon loss of cognitive faculties.

[winstonchurchill]

noticed on the miami.edu site where the Schiavo timeline is listed, that the Fla Congress has initiated two bills (two different times) that will mandate a feeding tube if NO other information is available. That's JUST the sort of thing lawmakers should NOT do, create laws as a knee jerk reaction to one instant case.

Yes, you are right. As I have contended, one of the unintended consequences of the overblown rhetoric about "not knowing Terri's wishes" is that, in reaction, legislatures will start requiring us to prove insurmountable burdens in order to have our wishes respected.

If I have lost my mental capacity, I DO NOT under any circumstances want a feeding tube. When the mind is gone, so am I.

[Aquinasfan]

Where is everything that makes Terri who and what she is? (You'll notice I use present tense here.) Have they moved on to the next world, are they still inside her somewhere, or have they been floating above her in her hospital room for the last 15 years, begging to be allowed to move on? There's really no way we can know the answer to any of these questions.

Aristotle's notion of form and matter simplifies the issue considerably, the soul being the form of the body (matter). The soul is the organizing principle of the body. Together, body and soul form an organic unity or composite substance. When the soul separates from the body, the body disintegrates or decomposes.

The mind is an aspect of the soul and is somehow related to the brain, but is not reducible to an epiphenomenon of the brain. The mind is superior to the brain, yet works through it. The state of the mind, when one is in a vegatative state or "brain dead," is anyone's guess.

[Uncle Vlad]

Yes! That's why we have to take the bioethicist's pronouncement with a grain of salt, because he doesn't know everything about the situation.

[Aquinasfan]

1. Why do you think that loss of 'thinking' (i.e. loss of cognitive ability) does not equate to 'loss of the image of God' "in principle"?

The common interpretation of humanity being created "in the image of God" is that, like God and the angels, human beings possess intellect and will. If the ability to think disappears at brain death (unknown, IMO), then "the image of God" aspect of human nature would disappear, but not the animal nature, the body. However, the soul, as the form of the body, is a simple spiritual substance (cannot be divided), so the aspect of the soul which acts as the organizing principle of the body cannot in principle be separated from the mind, which is an aspect of the soul. Even in a state of "brain death" then, the mind must somehow be united to the body, since the body is not in a state of decomposition. Body and soul are still united.

Nevertheless, heroic or extraordinary medical measures must not necessarily be administered in such a case. This is a separate issue.

I realize your screen name may imply an RCC background and I am not in any way trying to embarrass you, but do you have any Biblical support for your view?

Purely philosophical. The position doesn't contradict anything in the Bible, as far as I know. But I can't think of any Scriptures that directly relate to this issue.

Moreover, the Bible refers to the soul, but doesn't explicitly define it. Therefore, appeals to scriptural references to the soul beg the question as to what constitutes the soul.

2. The question here is not what constitutes 'death', but whether there is some condition short of 'death' which constitutes sufficient loss of cognitive abilities to constitute the loss of the 'image of God' granted in creation?

See above.

3. You have a very unusual concept of the departure of the soul. I would like to hear more.

It's the classical definition going all the way back to Aristotle's notion of matter and form, the soul being the form of the body. (See links above).

If the soul does not depart until there is decomposition, how much 'decomposition' is required? Some? Most? All?

Since the soul is eternal (not in the same sense as God's eternity, since God did not have a beginning), it must be a simple substance (uncomposed and impossible to decompose). Since death must be defined as the moment when the soul leaves the body, this moment must be instantaneous and final. Evidence of near-death experiences must be just that, near death experiences.

Since the soul is the organizing principle of the body, and is organically united to the body (body and soul together comprise a compound substance), the body must of necessity begin to decompose when the soul separates from the body. This conforms with Scripture, since we know that our bodies will be reunited with our souls at the general resurrection.

Is there pro-rata 'soul departure' keyed to the flesh which is dessicated?

The soul is the over-arching, integrating (Aristotelian) form of the body. When the soul leaves the body, the body begins to disintegrate or break down into its sub-parts, which in turn break down into their sub-parts, etc.

Does this mean you view the soul as residing in the flesh?

Body and soul form a natural and organic unity. (See Aristotle's "form and matter" above). Yet the body is not the soul, since a corpse does not possess a soul. Death, then, is obviously an unnatural state, and a result of the fall.

What about the fact that bones do not decompose?

See above.

What about cremation, explosion or other forms of death or destruction which preclude decomposition?

I'm referring to the term "decomposition" in the strict, philosophical sense. Decomposition in this sense refers to the de-composing of compound substances, substances composed of matter and form. Compound substances include human beings, animals, plants and even non-living things, the difference between these categories of compound substances being the differing natures of their forms or "souls," vegetative, animal and human.

Simple substances are represented by God and the angels (and the human soul separated from the body). Both possess form without matter.

[Quix]

World travelers for 100's of years have been able to tell marked differences in the value of life between countries where there was a JUDEO/CHRISTIAN foundation vs where there was not.

It's very sad to see some historically Christian countries follow the father of lies down the yellow black road to the worship of death while the dark lord laughs hideously.

[Arthur Wildfire! March]

"It's very sad to see some historically Christian countries follow the father of lies down the yellow black road to the worship of death while the dark lord laughs hideously."

We must lead by example. It's our duty. Just like Noah, being laughed at for his nakedness when he was drunk, we are being laughed at for our ethical turmoil-- far worse than being drunk and naked.

FReegards....

[Quix]

I much agree.

But except, perhaps, for a brief period of revival and coming back to God . . . the die is cast. And, I'm not that certain how much of a revival there will be.

It almost seems to me that the rest of the world is more likely than we are. So many dark forces in our land have so much passive and active support by such a larger percentage of the population than ever before.

[Arthur Wildfire! March]

"It almost seems to me that the rest of the world is more likely than we are. So many dark forces in our land have so much passive and active support by such a larger percentage of the population than ever before."

Our foes are more visible than the rest of the world's. We actually stand a better chance. FReegards....

[MHGinTN]

You know what you get when you assume to much (you assume Terri's wishes based on hearsay and your own predetermined agenda of liberty trumping LIFE)?... You get full of donkey meat. You are however the most prolific and skilled ass-kisser for the euthanasia and Michael Schiavo/George Felos agenda at FR, so far. Your parsing is more sophisticated than most.

[Quix]

Agree about the foes being more obvious, probably.

We have a lot of serious Believers still, thankfully. And, I don't believe God is out to destroy us. But some heavy discipline is headed our way.

And, China has more authentic Christians than we do by maybe twice as many, at least.

[winstonchurchill]

Well and truly stated.

[winstonchurchill]

The common interpretation of humanity being created "in the image of God" is that, like God and the angels, human beings possess intellect and will. If the ability to think disappears at brain death (unknown, IMO), then "the image of God" aspect of human nature would disappear, but not the animal nature, the body. However, the soul, as the form of the body, is a simple spiritual substance (cannot be divided), so the aspect of the soul which acts as the organizing principle of the body cannot in principle be separated from the mind, which is an aspect of the soul. Even in a state of "brain death" then, the mind must somehow be united to the body, since the body is not in a state of decomposition. Body and soul are still united. Nevertheless, heroic or extraordinary medical measures must not necessarily be administered in such a case. This is a separate issue.

I agree with your opening statement that the 'image of God' is found in the intellect and will. Moreover, I see the 'soul' of the person in this image of God, not in the Aristotelean 'actuality' of the body. I really can't see the incorporeal soul joined to the body in any way, except as it incorporates the intellect and will.

Thus, my view of the Biblical concept of 'soul' is a spiritual one. I think the soul may not be separated from the 'mind' so long as, by mind, you mean intellect and will and not 'brain'. Thus, I am not as concerned about 'brain death' as I am 'mind death' (admittedly a more difficult measurement problem).

So to me, all 'brain death' includes 'mind death' (or 'soul departure') but not all 'mind death' necessarily involves 'brain death'

Thus, medicine, which focuses solely on the physicality of the body, looks for 'brain death,' meaning the end of neurological transmissions, but that does not prove the 'mind' or 'soul' is still present even if brain function still is.

Obviously, Aristotle never had to resolve any of this because medicine was so elementary in his time. Somehow, I expect he would have come out closer to me had he had the modern data.

I simply find it hard to join the spiritual or intellectual concept of the soul or the mind to the physical body. The soul or mind inhabits the body but is not joined to it.

Thanks for your explanation of your point of view.