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To: gardencatz

It seems that you have combined several of our discussions in your more recent post.

It is possible (I'm not doublechecking it tonight) that some of the data (court records, etc.) is not listed on the Terrisfight.org site. Omission of certain documents could (if any are indeed omitted) affect complete understanding of the situation.

I checked the AOL site. I did not come to the same conclusion that her POV did not get in the way. POV can be subtle, especially when you tend to agree with the basic position.

Have you read Wolfson's GAL report. It is pretty comprehensive and dispels many of your presumptions regarding how soon Michael Schiavo began dating, and the *why* behind his *realization* that Terri had said she didn't want to live in the permanent vegetative state.

Did you know they'd been trying to get pregnant, and the doctors that Michael Schiavo sued (with the Schindler's blessing and concurrence) were gynecological doctors?!
It's all in the Wolfson GAL report.


148 posted on 03/29/2005 7:09:47 PM PST by thinkingman129 (questioning clears the way to understanding.)
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To: thinkingman129
I checked the AOL site. I did not come to the same conclusion that her POV did not get in the way. POV can be subtle, especially when you tend to agree with the basic position.

I'm sure this is probably true if you read the commentary, I never have, but the depth of resources and articles is incredible. If you take just today (29th)for example, there's a letter from a neurologist regarding Terri's situation. You would probably consider it biased as pro Terri since he discusses the tests that should have been done and the reasons why, referencing a basic neurological textbook. The second item is a public apology letter to LifeNews.com who wanted something shared from their website removed. Next is a Sun Sentinel article, and AP article from CA discussing the amount they spent caring for comatose prisoners, links to various articles on CNN (including the wacko who was arrested for trying to solicit someone to kill MS, which hardly makes the pro Terri side look good). The next article, from Newsday discusses the conflicting testimony and includes quotes from a bioethicist as an expert in these kinds of "right to die" issues and a couple of articles about the near showdown between Jeb, the state police and the police guarding the hospice. Oh, and if you look at her links on the left, she links to such resources as Abstract Appeal and this one from the U of M, which is hardly biased in Terri's favor: http://www.miami.edu/ethics2/schiavo/Schiavo_links.htm. I'd say that's pretty balanced.

Have you read Wolfson's GAL report. It is pretty comprehensive and dispels many of your presumptions regarding how soon Michael Schiavo began dating, and the *why* behind his *realization* that Terri had said she didn't want to live in the permanent vegetative state.

I have no "presumptions" about when Michael started dating. There is the sworn affidavit of the girlfriend he dated for almost a year beginning in the latter part of 1991. There is a motel receipt from a trip they took together. There are documents from a real estate agency when they were looking for a house to purchase together. And there are Michael's own words (there's a chart above) from his 1993 deposition:

Q. Are you presently involved in a romantic relationship with anyone?
SCHIAVO: Yes I am.
Q. Are you involved in an intimate relationship with this person.
SCHIAVO: Yes I am.
Q. Is this the first relationship that you’ve been involved in since your wife has been in a coma?
SCHIAVO: No.

Q. How many other relationships have you been involved in?
SCHIAVO: I was in one other relationship. [Note: this "other" relationship would have to be the one with Cindy]
Q. Was it an intimate relationship?
SCHIAVO: Yes.

What Wolfson seems to be referencing (and chosen to believe despite his claims of pouring over everything since this is obviously conflicting testimony), is MS's January 2000 court testimony:

Q: Mr. Schiavo, since Terri’s incident, did you have any intimate relations with another woman?
SCHIAVO: Yes, I did.
Q: When did that occur?
SCHIAVO: Approximately 5 years after the incident. I don’t know the exact dates.

Q: How long did this relationship last?
SCHIAVO: Approximately 8 months.
Q: Do you currently have an intimate relationship with a woman?
SCHIAVO: Yes, I do.
Q: How long have you known her?
SCHIAVO: 5 ½ years.

Either 1) Michael has a rare memory disorder where, unlike the majority of the population, facts become clearer as time goes on; 2) He changes his story to suit the situation; or 3) He's told so many lies to so many different people he's having a hard time keeping his stories strait. The fact that Wolfson ignores these obvious discrepancies...EVEN IF ALL HE HAD WAS MICHAEL'S WORDS, automatically makes his report suspect. Reading through it, I got the feeling he was Michael's guardian rather than Terri's as he seems committed to making his report fit Michael's case. If you compare this to Pearse's report, Pearse didn't give one wit about Michael or the Schindler's, his focus was on Terri.

As to Michael's "realization" of what Terri said...that "Time Clarity Disorder" again, Wolfson DOES NOT talk about Michael's remembering Terri's wishes, but Michael's OWN realization that it was time for Terri to die, though Wolfson writes as if Michael was the hero of a dime-store novel:

By 1994, Michael's attitude and perspective about Theresa's condition changed. During the previous four years, he had insistently held to the premise that Theresa could recover and the evidence is incontrovertible that he gave his heart and soul to her treatment and care. This was in the face of consistent medical reports indicating that there was little or no likelihood for her improvement."

And:

Michael's decision not to treat was based upon discussions and consultation with Theresa's doctor, and was predicated on his reasoned belief that there was no longer any hope for Theresa's recovery. It had taken Michael more than three years to accommodate this reality and he was beginning to accept the idea of allowing Theresa to die naturally rather than remain in the non-cognitive, vegetative state. It took Michael a long time to consider the prospect of getting on with his life [Note: if Michael's previous testimony is to be believed, this statement is untrue] – something he was actively encouraged to do by the Schindlers, long before enmity tore them apart. He was even encouraged by the Schindlers to date, and introduced his in-law family to women he was dating. But this was just prior to the malpractice case ending.

As a rebuttal, and if Wolfson didn't read these he wasn't doing his job, are the MEDICAL REPORTS from Terri's treatment prior to his winning the lawsuit that indicate HE saw improvement in Terri's condition (makes one wonder what she could have accomplished had he allowed treatment to continue). Not only does this reveal MS's duplicity, but Wolfson's as well. Now, I know this link is to a "conservative" sight, but it's just a list from her medical records. It documents, not only Terri's improvement, but Michael's witness to them: http://wuzzadem.typepad.com/wuz/2005/03/terri_schiavos_.html

Did you know they'd been trying to get pregnant, and the doctors that Michael Schiavo sued (with the Schindler's blessing and concurrence) were gynecological doctors?!

This I highly doubt, but only one doctor was a gynecologist, the other was a general practitioner. Again, if you read his prior sworn statements (see above) you'll see evidence of his "memory disorder" again. In the first instance he can't remember whether or not she'd been to the doctor for anything. In the next, which coincidentally happened to be the malpractice trial, he seems to recall "over 130" different occasions when Terri went to the doctor and/or hospital.

The other reason I doubt they were "trying to get pregnant", and Wolfson's oversight here is probably because he's a man, is that she would have talked to her friends and (especially if they were close) her sister. I wouldn't be surprised to hear she didn't tell her parents, but my sister and I tell each other EVERYTHING. Also, women talk with other women about issues going on in their lives. Get a group of 5 women together who know each other fairly well (like co-workers, for instance) and if one of them were having fertility issues, the subject would be sure to come up. Women have NO qualms about discussing these kinds of things with each other to get/give each other support and get advice (even if none of these 5 co-workers had gone through this, invariably one of them would have a neighbor who had a cousin that went through the same thing before they tried "XYZ" treatment that worked). However, the only testimony we have from friends and siblings is that she was going to leave Michael and wanted a divorce. So, while she may have seen a doctor for some problem, I doubt it was infertility.

If the Schindler's gave Michael their blessing about the lawsuit (and there's a whole new can of worms, beginning with the emergency room doctors who found NO evidence of a heart attack), since as you say they didn't know the Schiavos were trying to get pregnant, its because the took him at his word. At that point, even though he was involved in a serious relationship (something they obviously didn't know about either since they were encouraging this young man that they loved and trusted to "get out and date") they hadn't heard conflicting testimony, Michael was still providing Terri with physical therapy and he wasn't trying to kill off their daughter, so the fact that they would be supportive of his lawsuit isn't surprising. At the time, remember, MS was still telling everyone that every dime would go to Terri's care and rehab and not to a lawyer who can miraculously channel the thoughts of PVS patients by looking into their eyes.

Cindie

156 posted on 03/30/2005 2:56:16 AM PST by gardencatz (I may look like a girl but I'm not, I'm a cyborg! -- Katsura)
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