Citizenship row divides Latvia

BBC News ^ | 25 March, 2005 | Angus Roxburgh

[A. Pole]

Yup, I missed the part where Germany occupied the Baltics for 40+ years, and outlawed speaking/writing/reading in the native language, practising the native religion,

Your sarcasm points to the Soviets who actually promoted the idea of distinct ethnic republic (including language) after all they created many of them. Also Soviets persecuted also Russian religion, Latvians were quite prominent among founders of the Soviet system and among the last defenders of it.

Soviet system was a form of militant secularism which is growing stronger in the West.

[A. Pole]

Russians who can speak Latvian

Russians are as likely to speak Latvian as Anglos are to speak Creole or Esperanto. It is not a very useful skill.

[RussianBoor]

Yeah, I always remember about Red Latvian Riflemen. For instance, about Mr. Edward Berzin, one of the most prominent of them, who was the founder of the Kolyma GULAG and responsible for death of many many Russians. Fortunately, none of my family members died in Kolyma Gulag. A few were sent there but died en route in Siberia. Many thanks to Latvian communist Mr. Berzin, as well as to a couple of Georgian comrades Dzhugashvili and Beria.

People who talk here about Russian occupation do not know or intentionally choose to ignore a simple fact that before so-called occupation Latvia had been a part of Russian Empire for 200 years. Russian empress Anna Ioannovna, who ruled in 1730-1740 was also a Duchess of Kurland (one of the principalities that formed present-day Latvia). After her reign Latvia was gradually incorporated into Russia according to succession laws of that time. In 1917 and later, Latvians were very active participants of the communist revolution. The mentioned Red Latvian Riflemen were Lenin's most trusted bodyguards. And after they had helped to establish the communist dictatorship in Russia, they became clean and independent and very much upset when this dictatorship decided to get them back.

I do appreciate the tragedy of Latvian and other Baltic people. But I will not accept their version of history that they were innocent victims of aggressive Russia. They were the victims of aggressive communist dictatorship that was created with their active participation, and therefore they were the victims of communism as much as other peoples of the former Russian empire were, Russians included. No more, no less.

[flaglady47]

"When you're born in a country you're not an illegal alien, so don't try to change the subject."

It's called payback. People (and countries) have long memories. I think it was very ingeneous of the Latvian people to come up with you can be a citizen but must speak Latvian and know Latvian history. LOL. A brilliant move. You can still live here (even though Stalin opened the spigots of migration of Russians and others into Latvia and tried to destroy Latvian culture), but you must know your bread is now buttered by being a Latvian, not a Russian in Latvia. Time to show your true colors and allegiances, Russians in Latvia.

[RussianBoor]

Yup, I missed the part where Germany occupied the Baltics for 40+ years

You might want to read a few history books. Germany did occupy a major part of Baltic states since at least 13th century. In particular, Latvian capital Riga was founded in 1201 by German bishop Albert of Buxhoeveden, a founder of the order of the Livonian Brothers of the Sword, which later merged with the famous Prussian order of the Teutonic Knights. All major cities of the Baltic region from Danzig in Poland to Tartu and Tallinn in Estonia were thoroughly German and the majority of their inhabitants were German. Of course, all of them spoke German. You can read this and much more here

[RussianBoor]

What goes around comes around. Latvians are not the only ones that have long memories.

[RussianBoor]

It sounds very reasonable indeed except one little thing: almost everybody there by 1991 were citizens of the USSR. However, some of the former Soviet citizens living in Latvia were given the citizenship without any tests and some of them were not.

[jb6]

That's all the Soviets were ever good for . . . exterminating men, women, and children, including their own. Small wonder you borscht-eating cretins howl "Nazi" every time some country 1/1000 the size of yours actually attempts to act in its own interest, it's like you suffer from a geopolitical version of penis-envy.

I guess the concept of the Cold War being over never dawned on you. Do you still call the Germans Nazis or the Italians Fascists? How about those Spainish Fascists? Or those Austro-Hungarian Imperialists?

[jb6]

People who talk here about Russian occupation do not know or intentionally choose to ignore a simple fact that before so-called occupation Latvia had been a part of Russian Empire for 200 years. Russian empress Anna Ioannovna, who ruled in 1730-1740 was also a Duchess of Kurland (one of the principalities that formed present-day Latvia). After her reign Latvia was gradually incorporated into Russia according to succession laws of that time. In 1917 and later, Latvians were very active participants of the communist revolution. The mentioned Red Latvian Riflemen were Lenin's most trusted bodyguards. And after they had helped to establish the communist dictatorship in Russia, they became clean and independent and very much upset when this dictatorship decided to get them back.

[jb6]

The best part is that the Prussians aren't Prussian but Teutonic Knights who exterminated the pagan Prussians in a Crusade and then after taking their land even took their name.

[Grzegorz 246]

Is this possible for anyone to become US citizen If he/she doesn't know English ?

[Grzegorz 246]

"Thankfully these slime bags will pay one day!"

What ? Could you explain ?

[1rudeboy]

I guess the concept of the Cold War being over never dawned on you.

The Cold War is not over as long as there are comrades of yours in Russia fantasizing about the "near abroad." Your implication that the former captive nations needn't worry themselves because it is "over" is laughable on its face.

[A. Pole]

Is this possible for anyone to become US citizen If he/she doesn't know English ?

Many of these Russians were born their and meny lived for generations. In Poland before the WWIII war, many Jews, Ukrainians and Germans did not speak Polish. Yet Poles after gaining independence were so petty as to deprive these ethnic groups of rights or deport them.

But I am sure if the situations were reversed you would be the first to condemn Russians.

[A. Pole]

It's called payback. People (and countries) have long memories.

Russia made a mistake. They should have left Baltics under German/Swedish rule and Latvians would be a memory like native Prussians (their cousins), like Tasmanians (who benefited from the tolerant democratic Anglos) and the bird dodo.

They should not have created Polish Kingdom in 1815 and instead have left Warsaw, Krakow, Poznan under German/Austrian rule (as it was done during the partitions).

They did not emulate American way of dealing with the native tribes and as a result their country of hundred languages (many of them having official status).

This is how the bird dodo looked like:

[twinself]

Yeah, Poles learned their lesson of pre-war Poland. Living in a country doesn't mean you are ready to fight for its independence. Unassimilated minorities can be a threat no less than your country's enemies. I'll set some examples - who knows them better than us Poles. My father's family was denounced to Soviets by a Jew, Polish citizen. We had some "truthful" Polish-German Volksdeutsche in Slask as well. The same concerns Ukrainians with Polish citizenship in Wolyn. Some members of these ethnic groups took advantage of their privileged postition (partly Polish - partly "other") in the time of a moral probe. Fortunately of course there were brave, truthful Polish Jews, too. I'd rather call them Poles of Jewish origin. Anyway I am really glad our minorities are real minorities nowadays and this is not our problem anymore.

You don't speak country's official language, know nothing about it history etc. - you don't become a citizen. As simple as that. Over. If you want to become a conscious citizen with a right to decide upon your motherland's fate, represent your group in dealings with other groups... Then prove you deserve it by passing a language/history test at least. Is this unfair for you? I think best test for Latvian citizenship of Russians would be their behaviour after Latvia was reinvaded (hopefully this will never happen). It makes me wonder if they'd pass blood test for their country's independence, too.

[Tailgunner Joe]

Russians are as likely to speak Latvian as Anglos are to speak Creole or Esperanto. It is not a very useful skill.

It is if they want to become a Latvian citizen.

[Tailgunner Joe]

before so-called occupation Latvia had been a part of Russian Empire for 200 years

Not anymore. Get used to it.

[Modernman]

They were citizens of the USSR, not Latvia. If they would like to become citizens of Latvia, it is not unreasonable that they take a few tests.

There were no citizens of Latvia until 1990. When Latvia obtained its independence, the equitable thing to do would have been to grant blanket citizenship to any citizen of the former USSR then living within Latvia's borders.

Basing citizenship on some racial or ethnic standards is distasteful, to say the least.

[jb6]

How about the Belruss and Ukrainians in inter-war Poland, which held the western oblasts of those countries. I'm sure they had a lot of love for the military dictator while their churches were being burned down for refusing to convert to catholicism. I'm sure that had nothing to do with it. Ever wonder why the Zaprochina Cossaks rebelled so often against the Polish kings?