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To: PatrickHenry; betty boop; js1138; r9etb; ckilmer; marron; cornelis; LogicWings
Thank you so much for your additional changes!

The casual observer might ask why I don't combine "faith" with number 5 in the non-theological part of the list (Acceptance of another's opinion: I provisionally accept the opinion of X ...) The reason is -- at least to me -- the nature of the track record that inspires the acceptance. In accepting the consensus of, say, physicists on the structure of the atom, there is an objectively verifiable body of evidence that could be reviewed. In the area of faith (in purely theological matters), by definition there is no such track record.

Indeed, this is why we need separate lists for each correspondent. In your worldview it is possible for a person to objectively verify evidence. Conversely, in my worldview the indwelling Spirit is the Truth and also the confirmation of all other knowledge, including evidences.

Below is your compilation followed by mine. I’ve gathered some ideas from your posts and made a few changes to mine as well! Please let me know if the order of certainty is correct for you.

I welcome any contributions for other lists!

PatrickHenry’s types of “knowledge” and valuation of certainties:

1. Logical conclusion: I can prove the Pythagorean theorem is valid and true.
2. Prediction from scientific theory: I calculate there will be a partial solar eclipse this week.
3. Conclusion from evidence: I conclude from the verifiable evidence that ...
4. Sensory perception of something external to me: I see my dog is lying at my feet.
5. Acceptance of another's opinion: I provisionally accept the opinion of X (an individual or group) as knowledge because (a) I haven't worked it out for myself; and (b) I have what I regard as good reason for confidence in X.
6. Personal memory: I recall I had breakfast this morning.
7. Internal emotional state: I feel I'm happy, or I have empathy, compassion or sympathy for you.

Separate List for theological knowledge:

1. Revelation: Spiritual understanding divinely communicated.
2. Faith: Belief in a revelation experienced by another.

Alamo-Girl’s types of “knowledge” and valuation of certainties:

1. Theological knowledge, direct revelation: I have Spiritual understanding directly from God concerning this issue, e.g. that Jesus Christ is the Son of God - it didn't come from me.
2. Theological knowledge, indirect revelation: I believe in a revelation experienced by another, i.e. Scripture is confirmed to me by the indwelling Spirit.
3. Logical conclusion: I can prove the Pythagorean theorem is valid and true.
4. Evidence/Historical fact, uninterpreted: I have verifiable evidence Reagan was once President.
5. Sensory perception of something external to me: I see my dog is lying at my feet.
6. Personal memory: I recall I had breakfast this morning.
7. Prediction from scientific theory: I calculate there will be a partial solar eclipse this week.
8. Trust in a Mentor: I trust this particular person to always tell me the truth, therefore I know …
9. Internal emotional state: I feel I'm happy, or I have empathy, compassion or sympathy for you.
10. Evidence/Historical fact, interpreted: I conclude from the fossil evidence in the geologic record that …
11. Determined facts: I accept this as fact because of a consensus or veto determination by others, i.e. I trust that these experts or fact finders know what they are talking about.
12. Imaginings: I imagine how things ought to have been in the Schiavo case.


1,085 posted on 04/06/2005 8:28:15 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl (Please donate monthly to Free Republic!)
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To: Alamo-Girl
js1138’s types of “knowledge” and valuation of certainties:

1. Internal emotional state: I feel I'm happy, or I have empathy, compassion or sympathy for you. This is pretty nearly the only thing I am certain of. It's certain even if I am deranged or on drugs, or both. In this category I would place my knowledge of morality, which for AG seems to be expressed as revealed knowledge.

2. Sensory perception of something external to me: I see my dog is lying at my feet. I am aware that this has limitations, but what choices do I have? I learn the limitations and live with them.

3. Personal memory: I recall I had breakfast this morning. Same limitations apply, except that they are more frequent and serious.

4. Logical conclusion: I can prove the Pythagorean theorem is valid and true. The trueness may be unassailable, but the conclusions of axiomatic reasoning are only as true as the axioms, which may be arbitrary. Outside of pure logic and pure mathematics, axiomatic reasoning drops quickly in my estimation of usefulness. People who argue politics and religion from a "rational" perspective are low on my list of useful sources.

5. Prediction from scientific theory: I calculate there will be a partial solar eclipse this week. I am not aware of any scientific theory that I understand which has failed in a major way. Some theories, of course, make sharper predictions than others. Eclipses are pretty certain.

6. Conclusion from evidence: I conclude from the verifiable evidence that ... Oddly enough, "facts" are less certain in my view than theories.

7. Acceptance of another's opinion: I provisionally accept the opinion of X (an individual or group) as knowledge because (a) I haven't worked it out for myself; and (b) I have what I regard as good reason for confidence in X.

1,087 posted on 04/06/2005 9:00:48 AM PDT by js1138 (There are 10 kinds of people: those who read binary, and those who don't.)
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To: Alamo-Girl
I find it fascinating how your "certainty index" differs from mine. Example: You rank your own personal memories as a more certain source of knowledge than calculations predicting a solar eclipse. I don't have that much confidence in human memory.

This whole subject of "knowledge" is probably worth a vanity thread of its own. If more attention were paid to it, perhaps a lot of confusion in many areas could at least be understood better. Many disagreements are probably the result of different "knowledge priorities" rather than pure stubbornness, as often seems the case. Alas, all this work is somewhat lost here at the end of a thread with an unrelated article.

1,088 posted on 04/06/2005 9:07:42 AM PDT by PatrickHenry (<-- Click on my name. The List-O-Links for evolution threads is at my freeper homepage.)
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To: Alamo-Girl
One more observation about your "certainty index." Because you rank knowledge from revelation (whether direct or accepted on faith) ahead of all forms of observation, you might find yourself in a difficult bind regarding the Galileo controversy, because that's exactly (it seems to me) the "certainty index" that he was up against. He stated his position (which is also mine) in this document, the link to which which I've posted many times in the past:
Letter to the Grand Duchess Christina of Tuscany. Excerpt:
... nothing physical which sense ­experience sets before our eyes, or which necessary demonstrations prove to us, ought to be called in question (much less condemned) upon the testimony of biblical passages which may have some different meaning beneath their words.
His position didn't prevail at the time. Since then the Church has quite literally modified it's certainty index, as can be inferred from this Papal document:
The Pope's 1996 statement on evolution. Excerpt:
I had the opportunity, with regard to Galileo, to draw attention to the need of a rigorous hermeneutic for the correct interpretation of the inspired word. It is necessary to determine the proper sense of Scripture, while avoiding any unwarranted interpretations that make it say what it does not intend to say. In order to delineate the field of their own study, the exegete and the theologian must keep informed about the results achieved by the natural sciences.
I'm rather confident that you accept the solar system. Nevertheless, to routinely rank the interpretations of others regarding revelation ahead of what we actually observe can generate conflicts of this nature. Or so it seems to me. Anyway, that's why I put theological issues in a separate ranking.
1,089 posted on 04/06/2005 9:34:26 AM PDT by PatrickHenry (<-- Click on my name. The List-O-Links for evolution threads is at my freeper homepage.)
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To: Alamo-Girl; PatrickHenry; betty boop; js1138; r9etb; ckilmer; marron; cornelis; LogicWings

Public release date: 10-Apr-2005


Contact: David Reid
david.reid@iop.org
44-207-470-4815
Institute of Physics
http://www.eurekalert.org/bysubject/mathematics.php

Sacred constant might be changing
Scientists discover one of the constants of the universe might not be constant
Physical constants are one of the cornerstones of physics ? sacred numbers which we know to be fixed ? but what if some of these constants are changing? Speaking at the Institute of Physics conference Physics 2005, Dr Michael Murphy of Cambridge University will discuss the "fine structure constant" ? one of the critical numbers in the universe which seems to be precisely tuned for life to exist ? and suggest that it might not be constant after all.
Dr Murphy has used the largest optical telescope in the world, the Keck telescope on Mauna Kea in Hawaii, to study light from distant quasars. This light has been travelling across the universe for billions of years, and seems to show that the fine structure constant, often known as "alpha", may be varying over time.

The fine structure constant governs the electromagnetic force which holds all atoms and molecules together. Scientists have known for many years that if its value was slightly different, life could not exist. Only the very tiniest changes over time could be tolerated, and most scientists believe that alpha today is the same as it always has been.

The constant also affects the absorption fingerprint of atoms, which can be detected when light shines through gas clouds. Murphy has used quasars as incredibly distant light sources, whose light encounters gas clouds on its way to Earth. The light takes time to reach Earth, so he sees the fingerprints as they were billions of years ago. By comparing these fingerprints with those obtained in experiments on Earth, he concludes that alpha has changed by about one part in two-hundred-thousand during the last 10 billion years.

Other researchers have published results which suggest that alpha does not change. However Dr Murphy's work is the most detailed survey ever performed. He says that the internal checks in his method, which other research groups did not use, make this the most reliable measurement to date.

Murphy is careful not to claim that the case is closed, and he says that nobody can really say that alpha varies until another type of experiment has confirmed it. "We are claiming something extraordinary here," says Murphy, "and the evidence, though strong, is not yet extraordinary enough."

Dr Michael Murphy is a Research Associate at the Institute of Astronomy in the University of Cambridge, and a Research Fellow of Darwin College, Cambridge.


###
Contact Details: Dr Michael Murphy, Tel: 0122-333-7505, Email: mim@ast.cam.ac.uk

Michael Murphy's research website: http://www.ast.cam.ac.uk/~mim/res.html

Dr Murphy is available for interviews: Contact David Reid, Institute of Physics, 44-207-470-4815 to arrange an interview.


1,115 posted on 04/12/2005 7:52:12 PM PDT by ckilmer
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