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Eight dead, four injured in Brookfield hotel shooting spree (Near Milwaukee, WI)
WTMJ NBC Milwaukee ^

Posted on 03/12/2005 12:24:04 PM PST by ConservativeMan55

Edited on 03/12/2005 4:38:41 PM PST by Admin Moderator. [history]

Eight people are dead and four others injured after gunfire broke out during a church meeting this afternoon at the Sheraton Hotel in Brookfield. Police say that the suspect is among the eight dead and no other suspects are being sought.

The dead range in age from 10 years old to 72.


TOPICS: Breaking News; US: Wisconsin
KEYWORDS: bang; banglist; hotel; murder; terryratzmann
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To: Ronaldus Magnus
Yeah, probably.

Could have been almost anything from a Baretta to a cheapee.....

Clip size should not be a issue here.

I am curious as to motive however.

401 posted on 03/13/2005 11:52:05 AM PST by Cold Heat (This space is being paid not to do anything.)
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To: Smokin' Joe
In this case, and in other cases of mayhem, it bears examination.

True.

My evaluation; he was a loser as a kid and grew up a psycho hating himself and therefor turned it around by killing others and himself.

People like this nut job are notorious for killing sprees just to get the attention they feel they never had.

402 posted on 03/13/2005 1:26:02 PM PST by MotleyGirl70 (Rap is to music what Etch-A-Sketch is to art.)
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To: stuck_in_new_orleans

The exact response I referred to, even expected. Very consistent. Best wishes for you. -Rambler


403 posted on 03/13/2005 2:05:55 PM PST by Rambler7
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To: ConservativeMan55

A family photo of Terry Ratzmann, the 44-year-old New Berlin,
Wisconsin man who shot 11 persons, killing seven before
killing himself with a 9mm handgun in Brookfield, Wisconsin
at the Sheraton Hotel March 12, 2005. The victims were
attending a Church of the Living God service when the
shooting took place.
404 posted on 03/13/2005 3:33:51 PM PST by Ronaldus Magnus
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To: MotleyGirl70
What's this about that Church having it's chief leader in North Carolina sending a tape around to the churches recently, telling people the End Times are just about at hand, and to prepare for it financially, i.e. the US and world on the verge of economic collapse, and to pay off all debts, as well as hoard money in savings for the time of economic tribulation where jobs will not be easily gained??

Heard this on FOX-TV today. Need confirmation. Can we 'pierce the veil of secrecy on such a recent sermon?

Theories: Such a tape, if played a few weeks ago in his church, combined with his depression/drugs? and the fact that he was on his way out of his current job, may have made him 'snap'. Just a theory.

If the Church in question here is an open church, they will not be afraid to allow a public airing of such a "tape" that has been sent around the US. Any person can walk into a Catholic or Protestant church and hear a sermon, or get ahold of it on tape. Just a thought re: this Living Church of God.

So, if possible, let's have the TAPE of that sermon (or hear an explanation of it, at least). Is this a "grab the guns and the groceries and head to the hills" kind of "last days" group? One wonders the more and more they split off from an original organization, Armstrong's church (WWCG) in Pasadena, which was widely viewed itself by Christianity as being a apocolyptic cult with all kinds of failed prophesies (in the 1970s and 80s mostly).

When this many people die, I would say that such a church should and is now in the "public domain". I would hope for "Open Book" on this. Something just doesnt sound right and seems to fit the patterns of cults.

405 posted on 03/13/2005 3:40:01 PM PST by AmericanInTokyo (Illegal Aliens "Those Wonderful People" in Jail Now Are $1.4 Billion A Year For California Taxpayers)
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To: LouD

"expressed their contempt for the very underpinnings of civilized society"

Any murder does that.

"They have committed a crime against us all, and they deserve to pay a higher price for that crime."

Any murder is a crime against us all. I don't care what JOB someone has, their life is no more important than anyone else's. If someone were to kill my daughter and a cop on the same day, and the cop's killer got the death penalty but my daughter's only got life (which equates to 20 years), I would be pissed. And so would you if one of your children were killed. You would not think it fair then that the cop's killer got more punishment just because his victim was a cop.


406 posted on 03/13/2005 5:39:51 PM PST by SendShaqtoIraq (Reggie, we will always love you.)
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To: Ladysmith
Search at his home: .22 cal rifle, no other handguns, did find remaining bullets for 9mm. Fired 22 rounds, 4 live rounds left in the magazine.

Fired from one mag, reloaded another mag and then took his life. (I really wish they would indicate how many rounds the clips held.)

22 spent casings plus 4 rounds left = 26 rounds. 13 rounds + 13 rounds = 26. So, I'd say he used two 13 round magazines.

407 posted on 03/13/2005 5:57:13 PM PST by fso301
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To: AmericanInTokyo

Some of the church members are getting frustrated by the fact that people are placing crosses in the ground outside near the scene of the massacre, to wit:

"In another, a cross is shown (and a cross is mentioned in some of the articles I have already quoted). For the record I should add that we in the Living Church of God do not use crosses or similar objects either personally, in worship services, grave sites, etc." AOL. Hometown http://www.thejournal.org/lcgshts/lcgshoot.html

-- see pictures of the crosses here: http://www.thejournal.org/lcgshts/lcgshoot.html

The minute I saw Fox showing a cross superimposed over a church each time they began a segment dealing with that shooting, I thought to myself that they have NO CLUE that most of Armstrong's "church" spinoffs would view that no differently than would dracula. (Most, like Armstrong, believe that the cross is a pagan symbol -that stands for the pagan god, "Tammuz") I wonder if Fox has had any complaints from them about it yet.

If you tune in to Geraldo tonight on Fox at 10 PM eastern, he is planning on doing a segment on this shooting. bttt

Below is the letter that Fox News showed on the TV screen. Apparently the taped sermon was an expanded version of it.
I found it by clicking on "taped sermon" here: http://www.thejournal.org/lcgshts/lcgshoot.html

Personal http://www.thejournal.org/lcgshts/lcgshoot.html
By Roderick C. Meredith, Editor in Chief

Are You PREPARED?

Events prophesied in your Bible are now beginning to occur with increasing frequency. In this Work of the living God, we are able to warn you about what is going to happen soon. We are not talking about decades in the future. We are talking about Bible prophecies that will intensify within the next five to 15 years of your life!

Please understand. We are not "scaremongers." We love our fellow man. So it is our responsibility to warn our peoples­ahead of time­to prepare for the future. Most of our advice is spiritual in nature. However, in this editorial I want to give you some common sense advice involving your physical survival and your financial well-being.

We must always remember the "Big Picture" prophecy of Matthew 24:6–11. Christ explains that there will be smaller wars within "nations" and major conflicts between "kingdoms." He indicates in Luke 21:11 that "fearful sights"­or, as a number of translations have it, "terrors"­will come upon us, as well as truly "great" earthquakes at the time of the end. Concurrently, there will be famine and disease epidemics.

If we are truly Bible-believing Christians, we need to prepare for these situations. We are reminded of the old adage, "God helps those who help themselves!" Many examples indicate that although God will often intervene supernaturally to deliver us, He expects us to use wisdom and do our part to protect ourselves.

God warned Joseph, back in the land of Egypt, to set aside extra food for a prophesied famine (Genesis 41:25–57). Obviously, God could have said: "Don’t worry or take any evasive action, I will simply deliver you­no matter what happens!" However, the Bible­which reveals the mind of God­indicates that God wanted Joseph and his people to go through the experience of setting aside extra foodstuffs and learning to do their part in preparing for a future calamity. As the Apostle James wrote, "faith without works is dead" (James 2:20).

It is better for human beings to learn the lessons through these situations, and experience exercising caution, wisdom and perseverance, rather than having God "deliver" us from every possible catastrophe. For God is training us to be His full sons in His Kingdom and family forever. We must learn to develop the understanding of His will and the wisdom to do what is right in handling many different situations. Then we will be better fit and better prepared to be kings and priests, ruling under Christ, in Tomorrow’s World.

Our Father tells us in Proverbs 22:3 that a "prudent man foresees evil and hides himself, but the simple pass on and are punished." Obviously, God does not want us to be cowards. But it is also obvious that a wise man or woman should sometimes "hide himself"­take evasive action­or be secretly let down over the city wall and "flee"­as the Apostle Paul did in a dangerous situation (Acts 9:23–25)!

So we must each examine our own situation to determine what action we should take. Are we living in a low-lying coastal area where we may be in danger at a time of increasing hurricanes, tsunamis or similar natural disasters? Do we have at least a week’s supply of emergency food and water, flashlight batteries, a first-aid kit, a battery-powered radio, prescription medications and other essential items? Have we read the instructions from our nation or region about how to prepare for such emergencies as hurricanes, earthquakes or terrorists attacks?

I also want to strongly encourage our subscribers­especially the Americans­to prepare for a financial emergency that may strike our nation within a very few years. Although I am certainly not a financial expert, I do have access to many very reliable news sources. Right now, more and more news reports are warning of an impending financial collapse that may devastate the United States within the next several years!

Note carefully a few highlights from a September 12, 2004 article by Carolyn Lochhead in the San Francisco Chronicle:

"The first of the 77 million-strong Baby Boom generation will begin to retire in just four years.… ‘Chilling’ is the word U.S. Comptroller General David Walker uses to describe the budget outlook.

‘The long-term budget projections are just horrifying,’ added Leonard Burman, co-director of tax policy for the Urban Institute. ‘I’ve got four children and it really disturbs me. I just think it’s irresponsible what we’re doing to them.’ ….

‘To give you [an] idea how big the problem is,’ said Laurence Kotlikoff, economics chairman at Boston University, who has written extensively on the subject, to close a $51 trillion fiscal gap, ‘you’d have to have an immediate and permanent 78 percent hike in the federal income tax.’

These obligations are not imaginary. And unlike the 1980s and 1990s, economic growth cannot bail out the government because the Baby Boom retirement is at hand. Those born in 1946 will reach age 62 in 2008, allowing them to take early retirement and receive Social Security benefits.… A pathbreaking study by Jagadeesh Gokhale of the Federal Reserve Bank of Cleveland and Knet Smetters, a former deputy assistant secretary at the Treasury­commissioned by former Treasury Secretary Paul O’Neill­estimated a $44 trillion fiscal gap. It laid out a few painful options on how to meet the liabilities:

More than double the payroll tax, immediately and forever, from 15.3 percent of wages to nearly 32 percent; Raise income taxes by two-thirds, immediately and forever;
Cut Social Security and Medicare benefits by 45 percent, immediately and forever;
Or eliminate forever all discretionary spending, which includes the military, homeland security, highways, courts, national parks and most of what the federal government does outside of the transfer of payments to the elderly.

Such corrective actions grow more severe each year. Waiting just until 2008, the end of the next presidency, would mean raising the payroll tax to 33.5 percent instead of 32 percent, the study found.

Gokhale said that fresh numbers from the Medicare trustees show the fiscal gap has since grown to $72 trillion, $10 trillion of that for Social Security and an astonishing $62 trillion for Medicare, the government health care program for the elderly."

Think!

Does an amount like $72 trillion get your attention? Does the need to raise the income tax by two-thirds­"immediately and forever"­seem significant? Does the need to cut Social Security and Medicare benefits by nearly half seem serious?

And whom have we just quoted? Some religious fanatics or financial weirdos? No! We have just quoted the U.S. Comptroller General and several respected economists, including two Federal Reserve Bank officials. They are the ones giving these astonishing figures, which portend the biggest economic challenge of modern times. So each of us should carefully consider what lies ahead, and get our own financial house in order.

A first priority would be to pay off all credit card debts­and all other debts we possibly can. We should also have at least the equivalent of 60 days’ living expenses in case of a sudden breakdown in the banking system or a similar emergency. Also, we should gradually work out a family budget that allows us, over time, to set aside financial resources to carry us through a year or more in case of job loss, catastrophic health situation, etc.

Finally, we should not leave God out of the picture. Although the natural reaction would be to take care of the financial side and forget about God, the truly wise approach is to honor our Creator in this matter and know, in faith, that He will then bless and guide all our other efforts. The Bible tells us, "Honor the Lord with your possessions, and with the firstfruits of all your increase; so your barns will be filled with plenty, and your vats will overflow with new wine" (Proverbs 3:9–10).

Jesus Christ Himself instructed: "Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal; but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also" (Matthew 6:19–21).

If you truly believe in the living God and in His inspired word, you will do your part to support His Work even in trying times. Then the Creator will certainly "be there" when you desperately need Him. But even if you do not yet understand this spiritual matter, be sure to be aware of what is going to happen physically, and take immediate steps to begin putting your own financial house in order. You owe it to your family and yourself!

­Roderick C. Meredith


408 posted on 03/13/2005 5:59:51 PM PST by Matchett-PI (Macroevolution is the last of the great Mystery Religions of the 19th century.)
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To: CitizenM
I know this is probably going to bring some laughs from a few but I seriously believe in the battle between good and evil. On the spiritual level. It is evil that causes crimes like this horrible one, the Atlanta Courtroom Killer/Nichols, BTK, the rash of teachers involved with students, the high level of crimes by those in world leading positions, and etc. The evil "spirit" twists people's minds to perform evil acts, just as God guides us to do good. So much is happening lately that has been influenced by the dark side, the evil "spirit." Most of us here, I assume, are strong supporters of President Bush, and many feel he is a man of principle and very spiritual. He is a good person, who surrounds himself with good people, and who openly admits to his relationship with God. He has fought evil, and brought a lot of good to the world again. If one believes in God, as our great President does, one must also accept that there is a force of Evil, and that evil is struggling for control. Call it the devil, whatever. When evil is threatened, it becomes heightened to fight for survival. All these crimes, in our homes, neighborhoods, schools...teachers, terrorists, political leaders, etc...all this dark "stuff" surfacing - this is evil fighting back. Now I am not an every Sunday church goer, but I have strong beliefs and faith. I remember the lessons I was taught, and that we must always be watchful of the power of evil. It disguises itself in many ways - sometimes in the persona of national leaders, ala Clinton, who so many thought and still think is a good person, sometimes in massive movements like the campaigns to take "God" out of our country's documents, buildings, schools. Like pro-choice movements, people who favor "mercy killing," gay marriages, etc. And sometimes in lifestyles of groups like the wild lives of the Hollywood bunch who have flaunted morality in the face of believers. These people can rationalize their positions in grandiose, intellectual ways, and sound very convincing and considerate of others' difficulties. But, in effect, their desires are to drive us away from God and our belief and faith in His laws. We must be of this world, and at the same time, be aware of the spiritual world. Prayer is our strongest ally, and best hope at times like these, as we struggle to keep from falling under the spell of, or control of evil people. The battle is real, we must recognize it is going on. 72 posted on 03/12/2005 4:04:29 PM EST by CitizenM

Worth repeating, BUMPING for the GOOD guys...

409 posted on 03/13/2005 8:01:52 PM PST by Gilbo_3 (Patience is a virtue, but it aint one of mine !!!)
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To: Just mythoughts
You must have always asked the right questions and never got out of line. The "Don't believe Me, believe the Holy Bible" was the sales pitch. The list is extremely long where the doctrine is anti-Bible. What was the guy's name that hitched himself to the "Church" wagon, the one that always wore sunglasses? Have they set a new date to flee?

What are you really trying to say?

410 posted on 03/13/2005 8:20:21 PM PST by timestax
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To: timestax

411 posted on 03/13/2005 8:57:28 PM PST by timestax
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To: MotleyGirl70
My evaluation; he was a loser as a kid and grew up a psycho hating himself and therefor turned it around by killing others and himself. People like this nut job are notorious for killing sprees just to get the attention they feel they never had.

Your evaluation is probably correct insofar a personality profile, but there may be religous overtones to complicate the mix as well. Before the flames start, any religion is open to misinterpreataion if handled poorly by the unguided and desperate.

Flipping through the Bible, you could read ..." Judas hanged himself..." and flip further and read "Go thou and do likewise."

One would have to be very spiritually weak not to realize that this was not God talking to you, but such people exist.

Off topic, but I fully agree with your tagline!

412 posted on 03/13/2005 11:45:49 PM PST by Smokin' Joe (I work with computers too much to let one run my car!)
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To: AmericanInTokyo
As mentioned on the other thread, this "end of the world" schtick of theirs is common knowledge. They've been saying "it's a matter of years and not decades" for decades now.
413 posted on 03/14/2005 7:59:21 AM PST by BJClinton
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To: Brad's Gramma
"Hey! I kinda LIKE being called a Jesus Nut! Better THAT than an atheist!!! "

Unless you belong to some weird cult or have shot up a revival meeting I doubt you qualify as a "Jesus Nut".
414 posted on 03/14/2005 8:41:48 AM PST by monday
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To: EternalVigilance
"I have a thing about this particular 'church', I admit. I blame them and their extreme legalism for breaking up my family when I was just hitting my teenage years. What followed was me on the streets on my own from about fourteen on."

Thats sad. Ordinary Christians have a hard time accepting that there IS such a thing as "Jesus Nuts". They are evil and do real harm to people.
415 posted on 03/14/2005 9:02:28 AM PST by monday
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To: sully777

"Flame is lowered. Spleen is vented. We're still friends."

what a jerk


416 posted on 03/14/2005 9:13:35 AM PST by monday
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To: ConservativeMan55

bump for later


417 posted on 03/14/2005 3:49:52 PM PST by Chili Girl
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