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Personal Accounts Tank in Polls, GOP Says (social security reform)
Yahoo News/AP ^ | March 8, 2005 | DAVID ESPO

Posted on 03/08/2005 8:39:25 PM PST by FairOpinion

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To: M. Thatcher

Nope. But I will not dig up the links tonight. The Washington Post suggested that there was no real vesting in the private accounts. There is in the Bush proposal. But the offset is as I described. There is no real free lunch available on this one Maggie. Deal with it.


61 posted on 03/08/2005 10:11:17 PM PST by Torie
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Comment #62 Removed by Moderator

To: M. Thatcher

By the way, I grew up in the Valley. It's amazing I have any literacy at all.


63 posted on 03/08/2005 10:12:42 PM PST by Torie
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To: Floyd R Turbo

Yes, it is wonderful they don't have to deal with the actuarial deficit.


64 posted on 03/08/2005 10:13:39 PM PST by Torie
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To: Torie
Since the benefit cuts that are inevitably going to come, are not mentioned in your response, I am not sure your calculations are considering all the variables. However assuming you are correct, this is why I also support changing SS to getting out what you put in, plus the standard 1.2% rate of return that comes naturally. This whole idea of indexing based on either inflation or wages is ridiculous and is part of the insolvency problem. What bank in America would say, "Hey, well bump your balance simply because the dollar can't buy what it used to or the average wage is greater than it used to be!". The answer is simple, none. I get what I put in, plus some minor interest. Also, at least with private accounts if I croak at 66, I can pass it on. Plus in the long term, it could lead to a point where we privatize the entire system and eliminate the issue of indexing altogether and eliminate a huge entitlement. You gotta start somewhere, I say, sign me up.
65 posted on 03/08/2005 10:17:47 PM PST by smokeman
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To: smokeman

Slashing benefits will square the circle without higher taxes. No doubt about it. Why don't you run for office?


66 posted on 03/08/2005 10:19:33 PM PST by Torie
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To: Torie
There is no real free lunch available on this one Maggie.

It's not a "free lunch," babe, it's the ability to invest one's own money.

And before you settle yourself in your know-it-all dogmatic pessimism, get your facts straight.

67 posted on 03/08/2005 10:35:07 PM PST by M. Thatcher
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To: FairOpinion
Bush and the Republicans need to go to the people directly and explain things.

Yes! That's what Ronaldus Maximus (PBUH) would have done. Get right on the TV, and lay it all out.

Personally, I think these "younger workers" will change their tune in a few years, when they start thinking about how they wil get by in their later years.

The poor, indulgent, MTV-addled fools.

68 posted on 03/08/2005 10:38:11 PM PST by FierceDraka (The Democratic Party - Aiding and Abetting The Enemies of America Since 1968)
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To: smokeman
Since the benefit cuts that are inevitably going to come . . .

Not everyone believes benefit cuts are inevitable.  Why should they be?  Most of us do believe some intervention must be done to turn SS into a solvent program.

The [personal] accounts are backed up by a safety net guaranteeing that workers would receive at least as much as Social Security promises under current law.

From The Ryan-Sununu Social Security Personal Savings Guarantee and Prosperity Act


69 posted on 03/08/2005 10:38:28 PM PST by Racehorse (Where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.)
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To: Torie

The actuarial problem, by that I am assuming you mean solvency, is caused by borrowing from the trust fund and spending it in the general budget.

Your analysis is deeply flawed. It is exactly the reverse of what you said. Social security taxes actually result in the govt borrowing at 0.86% because that is the real return on social security. No other sector of the economy can borrow at that rate. The (real) equity premium over 30-40 years during any period from 1926-now is much higher than that.

Also, the benefit of social security privatization is like getting a tax-cut on your labor income. If you know that a marginal hour of labor will produce benefit that can be put in a private account that is for yours to keep, then people will work longer. The marginal investment in personal accounts from working a marginal hour is not a tax, as it is the case now, but a tax-cut.

As I said, it will bring about people chaning their labor input and also will make people more risk-averse and people will engage in risky activities less and less.


70 posted on 03/08/2005 10:41:13 PM PST by econ_grad
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To: Torie

I can't really argue with you there as I am skeptical about the actual numbers myself.


71 posted on 03/08/2005 10:46:18 PM PST by k2blader (It is neither compassionate nor conservative to support the expansion of socialism.)
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To: Soul Seeker

Your posts remind me of things Rush has said in the past (yes, that is a compliment! ;-).


72 posted on 03/08/2005 10:48:25 PM PST by k2blader (It is neither compassionate nor conservative to support the expansion of socialism.)
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To: FairOpinion

"the least popular"

What?? I have not seen one honest poll saying the personal account are the least popular. All I've heard is that younger workers are really happy about this change.


73 posted on 03/08/2005 10:55:46 PM PST by CyberAnt (Pres. Bush: "Self-government relies, in the end, on the governing of the self.")
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To: econ_grad
. . . the benefit of social security privatization is like getting a tax-cut on your labor income.

Ok.

If you know that a marginal hour of labor will produce benefit that can be put in a private account that is for yours to keep, then people will work longer.

Why would they work longer?  I don't see anything in your reasoning to support this hypothetical syllogism.  I mean, your conclusion does not follow from the premise.  Some people might well prefer to go fishing.  It only takes one to spoil the argument.

As I said, it will bring about people chaning their labor input and also will make people more risk-averse and people will engage in risky activities less and less.

Again, this requires quite a leap.  Will a twenty-two year old high school graduate be more or less likely to be a risk taker than a forty-five year old high school graduate?

This seems to assume a level of rationality I simply do not believe we commonly share.

74 posted on 03/08/2005 11:01:05 PM PST by Racehorse (Where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.)
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To: Sun Soldier

Weaning a baby... My wife has done that 5 times. It is the natural course of things. What I haven't seen her do is stick her hand down her throat and rip a 15 foot tapeworm out of her gut. That's Social Security Reform.


75 posted on 03/08/2005 11:09:36 PM PST by azcap
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To: Racehorse

It doesn't matter what individuals may do, it is what people do in aggregate that matters. In the aggregate people have to behave rationally, otherwise we will notice massive dis-equilibrium in the economy, which we don't. In fact, a lot of honest behavioral economists will admit that in the aggregate people are a lot more rational than we think they are.

I will tell you why people will work longer. Keeping wages constant, if the marginal output of labor increased your marginal wages/wealth you will increase the output of labor. In countries with high taxes, people also work less. People work a lot longer in countries with low taxes. If your marginal labor will be taxed at a higher amount, you will consider all your other elasticities before you commit to the extra hour of working. Maybe you would rather go fishing than have govt take 60% of what you would make if you worked that extra hour.

Social security represents such a tax. Govt borrows at a real rate of .86%. So, when you work an extra hour you know that 12.4% of your earnings will give you .86% on average. If you knew that it will get a higher return, then it represents a tax-cut. People will allocate labor more efficiently.


76 posted on 03/08/2005 11:34:49 PM PST by econ_grad
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To: econ_grad

The government borrows at rates higher than that. The return on SS is simply a function of the generousity of the benefits. It is a residual number. It is generated by demographics and the claim for benefits. It has nothing to do with rates of return on investment. The equity premia of the past was generated by much higher dividend rates than now, and a doubling of the PE ratios. It won't be that high in the future. It will be closer to 3% rather than 6%. See ya.


77 posted on 03/08/2005 11:35:07 PM PST by Torie
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To: FairOpinion
At the same time, the public "knows little or nothing about the details and specifics" of Bush's proposal for individual accounts, "and a good bit of what they think they know is incorrect," it said.

What is so hard to understand

It's like having a 401K that the politicians can't touch .. nor steal from you

And for the Republican .. HELLO .. get off your butts and discuss the issues

78 posted on 03/08/2005 11:36:23 PM PST by Mo1 (Question to the Media/Press ... Why are you hiding the Eason Jordan tapes ????)
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To: CyberAnt

Hopefully the younger workers will get their young little butts behind SS reform! :-)


79 posted on 03/08/2005 11:36:40 PM PST by k2blader (It is neither compassionate nor conservative to support the expansion of socialism.)
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To: k2blader

And .. hopefully, some honest pollsters will tell the truth about the younger workers' desires FOR the changes.


80 posted on 03/09/2005 12:05:01 AM PST by CyberAnt (Pres. Bush: "Self-government relies, in the end, on the governing of the self.")
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