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To: Just another Joe
Please, there is a world of difference and it has been shown time and time again. ETS (Environmental Tobacco Smoke) has not been proven to cause lasting physical harm to an otherwise healthy person with no pre-existing health conditions. Pee in a pool has been proven to be harmful for a variety of reasons.

Perhaps, you could expand your discussion to include the objectionableness of either activity to those who do not engage in it nor wish to be exposed to it. If you examine the core of your argument it is the same as for publicly displaying items of pornography by a business owner. By extension of your argument, the property owner has the "right" regardless of what the people of the community and the representatives of their legislatures think about the situation.

...There is no rock hard evidence that ETS causes any problems for otherwise healthy people.

There is rock solid evidence for very few things in this life. The majority of decisions are made on the basis of probabilities and potential negative consequences versus any positive benefits. In this case the potential negative consequences could be life threatening to an involuntary bystander and there are no positive benefits.

The activity in question is purely voluntary. The activity provides no tangible benefit to either, the user, or anyone else and is potentially harmful to both. It is not an enumerated right in any government founding document. Consequently, there is no reason not to restrict its location/use in public situations by voluntary partakers, and thus, its potential undesired impact on bystanders.

The smoker pays MUCH more in taxes...

It is a purely voluntary tax. If you don't like paying it, then cease purchasing the product. The product is, in no way, a requirement for health or longevity.

Look up the percentages of diseases between smokers and nonsmokers... Does smoking increase the risk of certain types of ailments? Yes. But genetics seems to play a much larger role than smoking.

At this point in time, no individual can control his or her genetics. Anyone can control whether he or she smokes or exposes others to tobacco smoke. Consequently, if a person can reduce the risk of exposing others to a potentially deadly and costly disease, even incrementally, by a mere act of will, why should lawmakers not mandate such?

If the use of that product creates a dangerous situation, (fireworks factory), then yes, that restriction is valid. If the use doesn't create a dangerous situation, (restaurant, bar), then it seems this wouldn't hold water.

The point is that legislatures have examined the situation on behalf of their constituents and decided that restrictions are reasonable. If you, as a citizen, disagree, then it is your "enumerated" right to petition the government for redress. If your petition fails, then your rights have not been unlawfully curtailed, merely duly restricted by the will of the majority through their elected representatives.

Such restrictions happen every day, e.g., there are frequencies of the spectrum that are reserved for various uses and it is illegal for you to broadcast on those frequencies.

I will say that I thought this was a Constitutional Republic, formed with, at least the thought of, protecting the minority from the tyranny of the majority.

If you feel that restrictions on smoking are "tyranny," then, as I have pointed out earlier, you have the right to peaceably assemble with others of like mind and petition the government for redress. If the elected representatives of the people disagree with your position, then you have the right to bring it to court for a judicial review to ensure compliance with the Constitution. IF the judicial body disagrees with you, the issue is not "tyranny" but the lawful exercise of delegated powers. But, wait... all of that has been done, hasn't it? And the result was?

Can you name one legal product that is taxed at the same percentage as pre-packaged cigarettes?

The rate of taxation of various commodities is not specified in any founding government document. Similarly, neither is the idea that the people's elected representatives are required to even consider such in exercising their delegated power to levy taxes. Therefore, this point is meaningless.

This isn't about your dislike of smoke or my convenience to smoke. It's about the right of a property owner to allow, or disallow, the use of an otherwise legal product that hasn't been shown to cause harm to anyone not a direct user of the product.

You keep neglecting to consider the fact that it is not just a "property owner" that is under discussion. Rather, the issue under discussion is property that has been held out by its owner on which to conduct a business open to the "public." The very act of so designating such property means that the property owner is not the sole arbiter of what activities or conditions may, or may not, occur, or exist, on that property as long as it is open for "public" business.
175 posted on 03/07/2005 11:52:56 AM PST by Lucky Dog
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To: Lucky Dog
Your dislike of smoke is causing you to be deliberately obtuse.

Perhaps, you could expand your discussion to include the objectionableness of either activity to those who do not engage in it nor wish to be exposed to it. If you examine the core of your argument it is the same as for publicly displaying items of pornography by a business owner.

One is a proven scientific health risk, the other is not a proven scientific health risk.
That is the core of my argument. Not the fact that some find something objectionable and some do not and that the majority should rule. That's YOUR argument.

There is rock solid evidence for very few things in this life. The majority of decisions are made on the basis of probabilities and potential negative consequences versus any positive benefits.

All right, let me rephrase that. There is no preponderance of scientific proof that ETS causes any harm to an otherwise healthy person.
In fact, the opposite is true. The studies run about 80% to 20% against there being any harm done to an otherwise healthy person.
Probabilities - on the side of the business owner.
Potential negative impacts - 1. - the unfair restriction of a property owner's right to allow, or disallow, the use of a legal product on the property. Whether it's open to the public or not has little to do with this argument. 2. - The tyranny, yes tyranny, of the majority, who have been lied to in order to advance an agenda that is not in keeping with the principles of the founding of our nation.
The only smoking ban that I have heard enacted that I agree was done correctly is Florida's. They amended the state's constitution. IMO, in order to take the right of a property owner there MUST be an amendment made.
Potential positive impacts - Some people don't have to smell smoke, ever, in any restaraunt or bar they might, someday, somewhere, maybe want to go into.

It is a purely voluntary tax.

The Master Settlement Agreement was not, and is still not, a tax. The tobacco companies only agreed to it after the government agreed that the companies could pass along the cost to the consumer. Up to that point, for the tobacco companies to pass along that cost was against the law.

At this point in time, no individual can control his or her genetics. Anyone can control whether he or she smokes or exposes others to tobacco smoke. Consequently, if a person can reduce the risk of exposing others to a potentially deadly and costly disease, even incrementally, by a mere act of will, why should lawmakers not mandate such?

Let me rephrase this and see if you agree.
At this point in time, no individual can control his or her genetics. Anyone can control whether he or she smokes or exposes others to tobacco smoke drives a car, mows their lawn, bar-b-ques, drinks liquid other than river water, eats anything but raw vegetables they grow themselves, etc, etc, etc. Consequently, if a person can reduce the risk of exposing others to a potentially deadly and costly disease, even incrementally, by a mere act of will, why should lawmakers not mandate such?
Any one of these acts can, and does, expose someone, somewhere, to carcinigens. Some in much vaster quantities than ETS. Still willing to let your lawmakers mandate such?

The point is that legislatures have examined the situation on behalf of their constituents and decided that restrictions are reasonable.

The FACT is that lawmakers are being lied to the same as the rest of the public. They are basing "reasonable" on lies, scare tactics, and junk science. Are they being naive and dictatorial? Most certainly.

But, wait... all of that has been done, hasn't it?

No, it hasn't. As I said, to date there has been no court challenge of that type.
On the other hand, the federal courts threw out the EPA's report. (You know, the one based on the CDC's statistics.)
The anti-smoker organization ASH sued to have OSHA set a PEL (Permissive Exposure Limit) on ETS and then dropped the case like a hot potato when OSHA told them that they already had PELs for all the substances found in ETS and let them know the amount of cigarettes it would take to reach those PELs.
And still, people like you would rather ignore scientific evidence for the sake of your nose and institute tyranny against property owners for the sake of your convenience.

The rate of taxation of various commodities is not specified in any founding government document. Similarly, neither is the idea that the people's elected representatives are required to even consider such in exercising their delegated power to levy taxes. Therefore, this point is meaningless.

Moot for this discussion, perhaps. Not meaningless.
Such a tax proved to be the straw that broke the camel's back for some of our ancestors.

You keep neglecting to consider the fact that it is not just a "property owner" that is under discussion. Rather, the issue under discussion is property that has been held out by its owner on which to conduct a business open to the "public."

No, I'm not neglecting that fact.
Other regulation, restrictions, etc, are based on a preponderance of scientific proof.
Smoking bans are not. They are based on the dislike, by some people, for the smell of smoke. Nothing more, nothing less. Not a preponderance of scientific evidence as is the case with temperature of food to be served, or stored, not the cleanliness of food preparation areas, not the safe amount of people that can be served in a limited amount of space, not the amount of times the air has to be cleansed, or replaced, such as with airlines, etc, etc, etc.

Your dislike for smoke and the "facts" that have been spoonfed to you are causing you to be deliberately obtuse.
Why will you just not admit that you don't like the smell of smoke and will use government power to enforce your wishes on property owners.

186 posted on 03/07/2005 12:49:38 PM PST by Just another Joe (Warning: FReeping can be addictive and helpful to your mental health)
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