Posted on 03/05/2005 6:21:41 PM PST by Lessismore
After the incident the command did the investigation. End of story except later a Marine NCO made the claim that Lt. Pantano deliberately shot the two men.
As I understand the men's vehicle was found to have explosives. During the search the two men started toward Lt. Pantano. He ordered them in Arabic to stop. They didn't. At least not of their own will.
Knowing that the ACLU pukes and other enemies within were set to swarm over the courts to get info, the story is that the Marines decided to make the charge based upon the NCO's claim. All others who were there dispute the NCO.
Lt. Pantano and his family have been threatened by enemies foreign and domestic. Other Marines active, retired, young, old watch over the family.
The MSM pukes should not reveal the names of the troops in the reporter shooting -- it could endanger their families' lives. All the more reason for the MSM to do it, of course.
Not a word from the President about Lt. Pantano.
What chance do these troops have when it's not an NCO making the charge it's a frenzy of foreign leaders, communists, radical Muslims, our Rats, our MSM, you name 'em.
When the US wants a carload dead we don't use a grunt and a ma Duece.
We use a Predator and a Hellfire.
Well, you're naive, so I guess that makes us even.
Same to you.
'Giuliana may have received information which led to the soldiers not wanting her to leave Iraq alive,' he claimed.
A mad dash to the airport, didn't inform US that she had been released...Sounds to me like Giuliana didn't want to answer questions.
Normal protocol, I would think, for released hostages would be a medical once over & a thorough interrogation for clues...where she had been held, descriptions of the kidnappers, an effort to recover the ransom... This sounds like an extortion scam & if the Italian Secret Service is involved in this, could the agents involved be a rogue element? And what's with the dash to the airport? What about the screening of people leaving the country?
And we should not forget--The Italians have some heavy-duty splaining to do to the Iraqis.
It would be unwise and foolish for the president to say anything about Pantano at this stage. He doesn't need to risk having claims of undue command influence raised. It just isn't smart or necessary. If he sits tight he preserves all his options, including directing that there be no prosecution.
I would wait and see where the Article 32 report falls out before getting too excited. That's what the president is doing. Marine JAGs and commanders are generally first-rate in getting to the right decision.
IMO, in a combat zone, there should be no obligation even to offer warning signals. This whole thing stinks to high heaven.
So why would anyone (assuming there are no grudges) want to pursue an Article 32 case against Pantano? I have heard that there was an accuser. And why doesn't someone in higher authority step in to end this insanity (assuming there is nothing more to the case)? IMO, Sec Def Rumsfeld or even President Bush should end this asap.
I quite agree. Anyone who has sat/whatever in the dark with a loaded weapon during wartime knows what to do when threatened by a potential assailant. I hope that all officers in the chain of command--up to W, himself--point out that our boys acted just the way they were trained from guard duty during basic training all the way up to real shooting war. It's one of those unfortunate facts of 21st century life that way too few MSM "journalists" have ever served a day in uniform.
By equating those stories you're still negating the fact that one was in a war zone and one was not. You are also implying that the troops at the checkpoint are covering up, but I've seen zero evidence to support your opinion. The account put forth by the troops is entirely consistent with the way you expect them to handle the situation. The account by the Italian journalist has been inconsistent and stretches credibility to the breaking point. That is not to say that it wasn't how she perceived it, but perceptions and reality are 2 different things.
Good point that others have made.
I tend to go with those who say that as far as the President of the United States of America and the Commander in Chief goes there is no such thing "undue command influence."
RE: "Marine JAGs and commanders are generally first-rate in getting to the right decision."
Another good point.
I'm old. I ask myself, what would FDR have done?
Those even older and Marine vets of the Pacific are dumbfounded. What if they had been monitored closely? I've heard more than one ask.
War has changed? It still comes down to the dead and the living, the losers and the winners and those who are asked to serve.
Who would complain if the President acted? The very same ones (enemies within) who make an "issue" of everything. They'll raise hell if he's not found guilty.
The FOG of WAR!!! Remember it was the TERRORISTS that kidnapped her and if not for that this would not have happened. Sadly this plays into the hands of the enemy!! Her life and that of her brave rescuers are no MORE of LESS important than that of those checkpoint soldiers.
The Marine convening authority is not likely to flinch to make the decision, but is quite confident to allow a Marine JAG to vet the evidence beforehand. If that is where the case is headed (to not prosecute), there is nothing to be lost and a lot to be gained by showing that the evidence was taken and thoroughly examined but, in the opinion of a highly-respected legal professional (and they will have their best IO on the case, believe me) there was insufficient evidence to justify court-martial.
The standard of proof for preferring charges and sending them to an Article 32 is slight. A case can end at the Article 32 level, and many do. That's what my gut tells me will happen here.
I never said anything like that. I said that POLITICALLY The Italian Prime Minister is under pressure to get a pound of flesh for this incident more for something that happened in 1999.
This present situation is totally different. These guys today IN 2005 were totally right. Those guys in 1999 were wrong.
The point is, POLITICALLY it doesn't matter from an Italian perspective. In their view, two US Air Force Officers got away with MURDER in 1999, and the US military justice system let them off.
Is that true? I'll leave that to the experts, the point is, P0LITICALLY that's what the ITALIANS are on about.
Again, for the record I THINK OUR GUYS WERE PERFECTLY JUSTIFIED IN WHAT THEY WERE DOING AT THE CHECKPOINT. But don't hold your breath that the Italian public is going to buy any kind of investigation by the US unless SOMEBODY'S A$$ IS NAILED TO THE WALL, because again, THEY DON'T HAVE ANY FAITH IN OUR PROSECUTING ANY OF OUR OWN PEOPLE.
Okay?
Thanks again for your POV. Certainly, all reasonably levied charges must be fully investigated, to the satisfaction of the US military command and other relevant parties. But, barring some significant disclosure, I sure hope that this soldier's good name will be cleared in the end.
Serbs and Greeks also were very brave
It seems that bravery is a quality that must be periodically nourished in a nation. Too long a period of peace and comfort brings about the atrophy of such a quality.
Not too many decades before World War II, the Greeks and the Serbs were successfully fighting the Turks for their freedom.
After World War One, the Poles were successfully fighting the Soviets for their freedom.
By contrast, the Norwegians, the dreaded Norsemen of ages past, rolled over without much of a fight in World War II.
I recently read an account of the capture the Oslo airfield during the German invasion of Norway that illustrated German bravery and Norwegian decadence at the time.
It may be Politically Incorrect to praise a German World War II operation but this operation showed great courage on the German side and a definite lack of backbone on the Norwegian side.
The German planned to capture the Oslo airfield by a parachute drop of 200 paratroopers. Once the Oslo airfield was captured, Junker 52 transport aircraft would then land with airborne infantry. The troops would them march into Oslo.
As in all the best laid plans of mice and men, something went astray. The flight of paratroopers ran into pea soup fog and was forced to abort their mission.
The commander of the paratroopers radioed that their mission was aborted and the commanding General ordered the entire operation be aborted. However, the commander of the follow up airborne infantry, a Capt. Wagner, believed that the radio traffic was an enemy ruse and ordered the airborne infantry to proceed with the mission.
Meanwhile, a flight of eight Messerschmidt 110 two-seaters commanded by a Lt. Hansen had been tasked with strafing the Oslo airfield. After fighting off a flight of Norwegian Gladiator fighters, with the loss of three aircraft, the Me 110's watched the Junker 52's with airborne infantry come in and attempt to land before the Oslo airfield had been secured by any German paratroopers.
The first Junker 52 that attempted a landing, Capt. Wagner's aircraft, was riddled by Norwegian gunners and Wagner was killed. The Junker 52 performed a "touch and go" and was airborne again.
Lt. Hansen, his Me 110 flight running low on fuel, then made a decision before any more defenseless Junker 52's filled with airborne infantry attempted to land. He decided that his Me 110 fighter crews had to capture the Norwegian airfield themselves.
Each Me 110 made a fast crash-landing and the Me 110 crews took their machine guns off the aircraft to act as infantry.
The Norwegian gunners fled and the remaining Junker 52's landed without opposition.
The German airborne infantry later marched on Oslo and secured the Norwegian capital.
As I said at the start, the spirit of national courage requires periodic nourishment in a nation. The current generation of Continental Europe, including Germany, would most likely act as the Norwegians did on that day in April of 1940.
SPITBALLS?!
John Kerry, is that you?
So well stated, it deserves repeating. The US has absolutely nothing to apologize for. She is an EVIL person and should have died. Screw the Italians if they can't see that our brave Warriors were only being prudent. The left is one with SATAN. There no nothing redeeming about the left. I pray they all burn in Hell.
Coalitions are so sissy sounding and appeals to the Socialist left. We need a Warrior Class to rise up and tell the world, we will go it alone and we surely don't need another other damn nation to help us. If they want to help us, fine, but we should make it clear we don't need them. It only makes us look weak. Throughout history, our great Warriors died because politicians were too weak or slow to use overpowering force.
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