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A discussion with a an ex-Marine pacifist over on LibertyPost.org...

"I hope you can forgive me for getting so emotional."

No offense taken...I expect to be labeled as a LoverOfMassDestructionMurder&Mayhem when I visit LP.org...LOL!!

"But I have three friends in the Marine Corps, one of that just got back from his second tour, and I know many more, and I have met and talked to many Marines. Some of these people are going to die."

Yes, this is indeed horrific...nobody's son or daughter, brother or sister, or Mom or Dad deserves to die on the battlefield. America should do everything in our Power to steer clear of unnecessary foreign entanglements. Still, war is sometimes required fer the GoodGuys to protect US from the BadGuys.

"That's why I'm so emotional sometimes on these threads. People I know and care about are going to suffer terribly. And people such as yourself claim this is justified."

I'm not going to lie to you, sir, I do indeed believe our efforts in Afghanistan and Iraq are absolutely justified and am proud to support the Bush Administration's efforts to subdue the IslamoFascist terrorists, here and abroad.

"Yet I read from credible sources documentation proving the corruption in the Republican party (also the Democrats, but they are following, not leading, the march to war for the most part anyway). I've read a great deal about Bush and his family. I don't believe everything I've read, not by a long shot, but there is an awful lot that has been published in mainstream sources that is not well known, and far more that is verifiable to those willing and able to invest considerable resources in researching these people."

This I do not believe...do you actually believe the DemonRATS don't have the Power to take down the Bushes if one-tenth of what you claim to be true is TRUE?! And with the DemonRAT Party imploding before our eyes, they really have NOTHING to lose by getting into a mud-slinging contest with Dubyuh...problem is, most of what is alleged about Dubyuh simply ain't true!!

"The people you support, the politicians you like, they are not good people. They lie, they lie to you in so many ways I don't know where to start. The only people who come close--to my knowledge--are the Democrats. You just support a different breed of "DemonRAT". It's a one-party system. The party is called the "New World Order" by those you support, the "United Nations" by those you don't support. Same thing by a different name."

Are the Republicans "perfect" in my humble opinion?! Of course not, and I consider myself to be conservative/libertarian far more than Republican...still, I have supported many Republican candidates and initiatives in the past 'cuz believe they are much closer to believing what I believe than the DemonRATS. While I disagree with the RINOs and want to rid the GOP of their DemonRAT-lite moderatism, I still think there are a lotta GOP folks who would love nothing more than to see the Federal Leviathan cut back to size, and would also like to see us pull out of the United Nations altogether.

"It seems to be the natural way of thinking for people to percieve everything as dichotomy. We are told that in the world there are two kinds of people. "Good Guys" as I believe you claimed were winning most of the major battles", and "Bad Guys", also known as "Them". We are told to choose between the Democrats and Republicans, and so we pick a side, and we become convinced our side is right and the other side is wrong. You do it to the Democrats, they do it to you. The Democrats/liberals are wrong much of the time. You are right about that. But they are right that you are wrong much of the time. The reason for this is because both groups believe the lies, rhetoric, and bulls**t of the politicians they choose to believe."

Yes, you have nailed me...I do try to see the world as Black & White, although I am fully cognizant of the fact that there is most definitely Gray in the world. And yes, I do tend to side with the GOP on issues related to National Security, and fer the most part, the Party of Reagan has earned my trust on decisions about War. But I don't receive GOP faxes or e-mails and parrot the party line...I derive info from many libertarian sources so I am quite familiar with the case against war if we do not believe it to be justified. So your accusation that I am simply echoing GOP talking points is simply misguided.

"It's been documented for a long time. You said "but war's been a reality on earth since the beginning of time". There is a plethora of evidence available that proves the wars America has fought for the last hundred years have been for reasons other than than what is taught to schoolchildren. The federal government has been corrupt for a long, long, long time."

No argument about the Federal Leviathan being corrupt for a long, long, long time, but I still believe America's participation in WWI and WWII were noble and fully-justified endeavors, even if certain industrialists made a lot of money in the process. I know yer gonna disagree with me on this next point, but I also believe our military's effortsa in Korea and Viet Nam were necessary engagements as part of the Cold War, which proved that America was willing to stand up to the Communists' expansionism. And in winning the Cold War, I think America accomplished one of the greatest triumphs of Good over Evil of all- time!!

"WAR is a racket. It always has been. It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives. A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of the people. Only a small "inside" group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few, at the expense of the very many. Out of war a few people make huge fortunes. - Major General Smedley Darlington Butler, USMC"

Let's look at that statement..."[War] is conducted for the benefit of the very few..."

Was WWII conducted fer the benefit of the very few? Did not the British people benefit from the defeat of Fascist Germany? I would also say that the FRench benefited from America's willingness to stand up to Fascism in Europe, and the Poles certainly benefited, wouldn' you say? And looking at WWII in retrospect, the Italians, Germans, and Japanese most certainly benefitted by America's actions in WWII.

How is it different when the Afghanis and the Iraqis are liberated from generations of Tyranny and Oppression?

"Mudboy, can you think of a good word or way to describe a victim of a racket who insists that the racket is good, even if it involves their money being stolen to kill people, and that the people running the racket are good, honorable men, despite any amount of evidence presented to them proving otherwise? What would you describe such a person who would spend much of their time and energy defending the racketeers from anyone who critize them?"

Yer welcome to criticize the GOP if you think their actions are immoral and unjustified, but I think you should be kind enuff to allow me to defend my contrary opinion without alleging that I am PRO-MassMurder or PRO-DeathOfAmericanSoldiers.

"How would you describe a willing participant in murder and theft who denies that it is murder and theft?"

Describe me as a DefenderOfAllThatIsGoodAndTrue in this world...that oughtta suffice.

Regards...MUD