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To: Destro; Auntie Dem
Self correction:

That is why Mormons went about FORGING fake rock carvings of elephants and horses and taking 17th and 18th 19th and 20th century Indian glyphs of such things and passing them as older pre-Columbain art. How could one worship a faith that got such a thing wrong?

82 posted on 03/09/2005 3:28:36 PM PST by Destro (Know your enemy! Help fight Islamic terrorism by visiting johnathangaltfilms.com and jihadwatch.org)
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To: Destro
You are suffering from a great delusion. I won't even bother to address all the OLD crap you raised. It is YOU and the peddlers of that anti-mormon trash that are the apostates.

Your so-called sources are absolutely WRONG about EVERYTHING they criticize in their great "research". The proof of "Mormonism" (as you call it) is not to be found in archaeology, but in the Spirit of God. I will not cast my pearls before swine.

Just for the record, it strains credulity to think that Joseph Smith, simultaneously attacked as both and idiot and a genius, could get even the general conditions of pre-Columbian America right, let alone hundreds of specific items, which your geniuses have overlooked or refused to acknowledge.

First the general conditions the Book of Mormon mentions:

1. A family and some of their friends (probably less than 50 in total) came to the americas from Jerusalem approx 600 B.C.

2. After about 400 years "on their own" (not really, but practically) they discovered another group from Jerusalem that immigrated at about the same time to the same land, but from a different direction. This group had discovered another culture that had exterminated themselves in a civil war. That group came much earlier--about 2,500 B.C.

3. The later group--calling themselves Nephites--were virtually exterminated approx 421 A.D. by their 1,000 year enemies they called "Lamanites"

Aracheaology Generalities

1. Mesoamerican culture is generally agreed to begin with the Olmecs, who similar to the Book of Mormon claims, appear in the americas about 2,500 B.C, most likely from Asia.

2. The Olmec civilization "disappeared" about 200 B.C., again similar to Book of Mormon claims.

3. Mayan culture got significant "boosts" to its civilization around 600 B.C.--consistent with Book of Mormon claims.

4. There were significant battles among the Mayans in the years 360 A.D. to 450 A.D. where many rulers of Mayan cities were captured, executed, and sacrificed by the victors--consistent with Book of Mormon claims.

Joseph Smith could not have luckily guessed even one of these generalities, yet the Book of Mormon is right on ALL of them.

Specific items from the Book of Mormon:

1. The Nephites and Lamanites built buildings of "cement" (stucco)--obviously verified by current archeaology.

2. The Nephites and Lamanites built paved roads--again confirmed by archaeology.

3. Nephite military leaders fortified their cities with outer moats and inner walls of timbers during the approximate span from 200 B.C. to 400 A.D.--again confirmed by current archaeology.

4. Nephite prophets and scribes recorded that their language was similar to egyptian heiroglyphics and was based upon their "manner of speech" (phonetic). Mayan writing is similar to egyptian heiroglyphs and is a phonetic language.

5. The Nephite record keepers recorded a series of battles between themselves and the "Lamanites" that began in approximately 300 A.D. and culminated in their utter defeat in 421 A.D. In many of these battles the Lamanites caputured their leaders and sacrificed them to their "idol gods" in their "temples". Modern archaeology had discovered a stelae at Uauaxtun (spelling?) near Tikal that commemerates the victory of "Great Jaguar Paw" over an un-named fully bearded rival king in 380 A.D. Great Jaguar Paw sacrificed this king and his family and buried them under one of the temples of Tikal--exactly as the Book of Mormon records.

6. During this last series of battles between 380 to 421 A.D. the Nephite general Mormon records the name of the Lamanite king he was fighting as "Aaron"--not exactly a well known Mayan name to say the least. Archaeologists have recently decifered the phonetic pronunciation of the Mayan conquerer "Great Jaguar Paw" as Yash Nun Ayiin, as close as an english speaking person can come to the modern phonetic equivalent of "Aaron". So not only did Joseph Smith get the name right, he also got the year right. Too much coincidence to be just dumb luck.

7. The great Classic period Mayan ruler Pacal from Palenque who died approximately 800 A.D. traces his ruling geneology to an Olmec king named "Kish" who was born approximately 900 B.C. according to modern archaeologists. The Book of Mormon contains the geneology of the "Jaredite" kings from approximately 2,500 B.C. to 200 B.C. Prominent among those names is a king named Kish, who if you count the generations back from the Book of Mormon list, was born about 900 B.C. Coincidence again? HA!!

There are countless other specific items, ranging from city names, crop and food names, weights and measures, etc., etc., that find similar or exact matches in ancient mesoamerican cultures.

Your claims that "Mormons" forged carvings in central america is ludicrous. I don't think even a single "Mormon" went south of the Mexican border until the late 1800's, and certainly never made it as far as Guatemala or Honduras any sooner than 1940 or later. However, to give you your due about forgeries I agree that many of the so-called discoveries of engraved plates allegedly found in the eastern and mid-western U.S. in the mid 1800's and later appear to be frauds--but many of these were not targeted to the Mormon audience exclusively, but appears to have been a mania indulged in by many unscrupulous americans eager to make a buck from the nearest sucker of any religion.

Having given you that, there is no way that Joseph Smith alone, or in concert with any number of supporting Mormons could have forged the cement buildings, the paved highways, the Mayan king Yash Nun Ayiin, the fortified cities, etc, etc, etc,.

It is no wonder you are as dogmatic as you have been about horses and elephants, which are a mere sideshow in all this, as it is clear if the Mormons are right about any of their claims it pretty much exposes you and the rest of the apostate christians for what you are. You and the PC archaeologists certainly have a vested interest to protect in maintaining your illusion that the Book of Mormon is a fabrication of Joseph Smith. And isn't that what this thread was about in the first place--PC revisionist history?

83 posted on 03/11/2005 8:26:51 PM PST by Auntie Dem (Hey! Hey! Ho! Ho! Terrorist lovers gotta go!)
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