Stephen C. Meyer Article: The Origin of Biological Information and the Higher Taxonomic Categories

Proceedings of the Biological Society of Washington ^ | January 26, 2005 | Stephen C. Meyer

[Tribune7]

A couple of Biblical literalists versus tens of thousands believing the evidence.

Just to stay on subject, Meyer, whose article we are dicussing, is not a literalist.

[DannyTN]

"The YEC'ers see this as a major turning point as we are on the verge of breaking genetics wide open and their wish is to stop the evolution of science before we can do that."

I can categorically say that's not true.

There are certainly some things we'd like to stop. Killing of human embryo's for stem cells is a violation of the sanctity of human life. Two homosexuals combining their DNA to make a child is a perversion and a mockery of God's creation. The rabbit-humans that the Chinese created and then terminated at embryonic stage are an abomination. There are sanctity of human life issues related to genetics that have to be dealt with.

But Curing a genetic disease or curing cancer with a modified virus is a great idea and I'm all for it. Just take excessive precautions so that you don't accidently engineer a killer virus and let it loose.

If you can make a cow that has chocolate milk, go for it. God gave us dominion of the earth and we can use for the betterment of mankind. Just make sure you know what you are doing when you do it. Don't take undo chances with things you don't fully understand.

[shubi]

Not a literalist, just a fraud.

[Tribune7]

it is suspected that the Apple/Hawthorne Fruit Flys are undergoing speciation in the wild at this time.

I'd be surprised if they weren't, but they are still fruit flies.

[Tribune7]

Well that shoots his argument to pieces.

[shubi]

I have heard that a fruit fly gave birth to a monkey, but it wasn't confirmed.

[BMCDA]

I'd be surprised if they weren't, but they are still fruit flies.

Well, of course they are. But that's just the same as saying that humans and dolphins are still mammals or that mammals and reptiles are still vertebrates.

[b_sharp]

I'm not sure what this has to do with varves, the deposition is in a different context and there is no mention of annual processes. You seem to have glossed over the diatomes and pollen found in varves to verify the seasonality of them. Why is that?

As far as stratification of the Grand Canyon is concerned, this has no impact on the identification of layers of different composition found there. Remember that not only has the strata been dated, they are made up of different types of rock, including igneous and metamorphic, as well as sedimentary as shown in your link.

[b_sharp]

"And what is that geological evidence? It gets back to what you expect to see and what the assumptions you build off of are. In this case you only have to be wrong by about 4000 years. "

It was dated by varves, which ere loaded with various types of pollen. Where I live lakes are frozen for 5 months or longer each year. During the winter no pollen is deposited but varves still form. This make it very easy to separate each layer by year. The aboriginal settlement found there was also dated to 9000 years. I guess the flood happened 29000 years ago. Interestingly enough, we also have multiple alternating layers of slate over rather deep reefs. Some areas have multiple layers of potash. Yet no evidence of water for at least 29000 years. Imagine that. This isn't perspective this is objective analysis of the physical world.

[b_sharp]

Sorry, atheists simply do not believe in gods or the supernatural. That is why they consider themselves atheists.

We do not need gods, science is more than interesting enough. It also does a damn fine job of explaining reality.

[b_sharp]

"The most recent one occurred just a week or two ago, where the kingdom of Edom was shown to be active during King David's rule. A lot of people had claimed that was false, and once again the Bible comes out on top. "

History is more defined by events. Places are simply the backdrop for those events; without events history is meaningless. The Bible fails ruefully when it comes to describing events accurately.

"I've heard enough criticisms of the Bible and seen it come true eventually as man's knowledge increases that my bet is on the Bible."

The criticisms will continue to come true as man's knowledge increases. I bet against the bible.

[b_sharp]

"For this and other reasons, it is unlikely that there will ever be radically new body plans evolving out of established species. New body plans can only emerge from rather simple body plans."

That depends on how you define radical. The therapsids mammals descended from evolved from reptiles. Is the body plan difference between reptiles and mammals radical?

[Tribune7]

I'd be surprised if they weren't, but they are still fruit flies. Well, of course they are. But that's just the same as saying that humans and dolphins are still mammals or that mammals and reptiles are still vertebrates.

No. Fruit flies can breed with fruit flies just as wolves and dogs (different species) can breed.

[Tribune7]

We do not need gods, science is more than interesting enough. It also does a damn fine job of explaining reality.

So what is the purpose of our existence according to the scientific method?

[WildTurkey]

I'd be surprised if they weren't, but they are still fruit flies.

It's only been 150 years. Give them time.

[Doctor Stochastic]

Sacks and tubes and combinations thereof seem to exhaust most of the possibilities.

[DannyTN]

Regarding Post 127 and the List of Reports on Piltdown

1. I'm glad y'all got a good laugh out of Authur Conan Doyle being in the list. The great irony is that Authur Conan Doyle's work was the MOST CREDIBLE work in the list. You see, from the most prestigious London Geological Society to the least known, every report on there was a work of FICTION. Thus Doyle's work, being the only one to present itself as fiction, was the most credible.
2. When I cut and pasted that, I assumed that the evolutionists on this thread would be smart enough to scan the list and spot the scientific journals. My bad.
3. Communication always being the burden of the communicator, I should have realized that in your arrogance and inflated self importance, anything less than a precise answer would be confusing to you. Again, My bad.
4. I concede the point that Peer Review did not become formal until the 1950's, probably as a result of Piltdown. But the concept was known from at least the early 1800's. I suggest that we throw out all evolutionist works prior to the 1950's, including Darwin's, and start over as there was no formal peer review process.
5. If you go to the first two links from the London Geological Society, and look at the end of the reports, you will see several comments from various doctors who reviewed the work, so it appears London Geologcial did employee a peer review process of a sort. In fact they seem to spend quite a bit of time congratulating themselves on having comments from the world's foremost brain expert and so forth. To do that you will need to go to the following link and then follow the first two links. Reports on the Finds: 1912-1917

[DannyTN]

"4. Brontosaurus Not published in a peer-reviewed journal

So now we see Piltdown did have some peer review. I skipped Haeckel since he was pre 1950. I agree Archaeoraptor might not have been published in any peer review journals, but it certainly made it into my son's books on dinosaurs. So now lets look at Claim #4.

Once again we will see that your claim of this not being published in peer reviewed magazines is false.

1. Deciphering skeletal patterning: clues from the limb

Francesca V. Mariani, Gail R. Martin SUMMARY: Even young children can distinguish a Tyrannosaurus rex from a Brontosaurus by observing differences in bone size, shape, number and arrangement, that is, skeletal...
Nature423, 319 - 325 (15 May 2003) Insight

3. Exceptional treasures

Michael Neve
Description: TREASURE your exceptions'. This thought, which appears in the middle of one...... CONTEXT: ...that make up Stephen Jay Gould's latest volume, might be said to represent the heart of all his arguments. Bully for Brontosaurus displays Gould's philosophy and enthusiasms to the full, more so than earlier volumes (some of which......
Nature352, 117 - 118 (11 Jul 1991) Book Reviews (from the Nature Archive: January 1987 - December 1996) PDF

4. Cutting ecology down to size
John H. Lawton
Description: How much does a rhinoceros eat? What would be a good estimate for the......
CONTEXT: How much does a rhinoceros eat? What would be a good estimate for the defaecation rate of a brontosaurus? What is the expected ratio of biomass for krill and whales in the Antarctic Ocean? Ecologists are often confronted by questions of......
Nature308, 474 - 475 (29 Mar 1984) Book Reviews PDF
5. Life's a Beach in Jurassic Park

6. Ichnology: Sedimentological use of dinosaurs
Michael J. Benton
Description: IN films and in fictional literature, massive brontosauri are pictured......
CONTEXT: ...of speed according to a simple formula3. The fastest "ostrich1 dinosaurs could run as fast as 35-60 km h', whereas Brontosaurus would have blundered along at 12-17 km h"1 (rég 4). The new work on dinosaur footprints focuses on......
Nature321, 732 (19 Jun 1986) News and Views PDF

7. Palaeontology: Dinosaurs that fill the gaps
Michael J. Benton
Description: DINOSAURS arose in the late Triassic, 225 Myr ago; some of the early forms......
CONTEXT: ...and the armoured stegosaur Lexovisaurus. Better known are the late Jurassic (about 155 Myr BP) dinosaurs Allosaurus, Brontosaurus, Diplodocus and Stegosaurus from North America. The re-dating exercise has extended the age of......
Nature317, 199 (19 Sep 1985) News and Views PDF

9. The parallel distributed processing approach to semantic cognition
James L. McClelland, Timothy T. Rogers
SUMMARY: How do we know what properties something has, and which of its properties should be generalized to other objects? How is the knowledge underlying... CONTEXT: ...cold blood to a brontosaurus more than to a rhinocerous) but they tended to generalize physical properties to objects with a similar appearance (they generalized weighing 1 ton to a rhinocerous more than to a brontosaurus). Though......
Nature Reviews Neuroscience4, 310 - 322 (01 Apr 2003) Review Abstract | Full Text | PDF

10. Models of speciation ? the evidence from Drosophila
J.S. Jones
Description: IF Lewontin's (1974)1 claim that "we know almost nothing of the genetic......
CONTEXT: ...less able to satisfy them than the dinosaurs. In particular, the idea of a windblown propagule of a pregnant female Brontosaurus is enough to strain the imagination of even a palaeontologist! Lewontin, R.C. The Genetic Basis of...... Nature289, 743 - 744 (26 Feb 1981) News and Views PDF

Now Please either retract your statement or admit that you were lying again

(Gratuitous Abusive tactic frequently employed by Ichneumon)

[lbmorris11]

Where I live lakes are frozen for 5 months or longer each year. During the winter no pollen is deposited but varves still form. This make it very easy to separate each layer by year.

You make a huge assumption. You presuppose static weather patterns and the presence of water for however long the time frame is you are using this lake for dating. I don't believe in a young earth but could evolutionists not make snide remarks? We know very little about what happened before recorded history don't fool yourself.

An evo/crevo agnostic

[lbmorris11]

150 years is alot of generations for fruit flies.