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To: royalcello
At least Alexander VI and Leo X understood that people who aren't naturally spiritual or religious need displays of earthly magnificence to help them elevate their thoughts towards the Kingdom of Heaven.

The "earthly magnificence" of which you speak reeks of decadence and is not uplifting to the vast majority of Catholics.

But, you're a monarchist, and will defend the dying English model at all costs.

"Pope as monarch" is not the model for the Church. Christ was a suffering servant, not a prince.

304 posted on 02/23/2005 12:41:28 PM PST by sinkspur ("Preach the gospel. If necessary, use words.")
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To: sinkspur
The "earthly magnificence" of which you speak reeks of decadence and is not uplifting to the vast majority of Catholics.

I remember the liberals blasting JPII when he had a pool installed in the Vatican. They were railing on about the costs. JPII said, "It's cheaper than a Conclave." Of course not cheaper than a billion in sex scandal settlements. Decadence means to be in a state of decline. Providing aesthetic experiences and high forms of art is definitely uplifting on a purely natural level and can be an icon for approaching the supernatural. St. Peter's Basilica creates a more profound impression as "God's House" than does the local Church that has no reference to Christ in it's architecture but rather looks like a Drive Thru Bank built in the 1970's. THAT is decadence. The vast majority of Catholics are Decadent because they have been deprived of offering their best to God as Abel did. Instead they give him the garbage left over like Cain.

St. Charles Borromeo lived in poverty in a palace. Celestine V did the same. The essential difference is they knew their offices had splendor for God and not themselves.

"Pope as monarch" is not the model for the Church. Christ was a suffering servant, not a prince.

You want to do away with the Kingship of Christ it seems. The Church has always had orders with various missions which provided the balance. Franciscans give testimony to the fact that the Church is not vulgar in conspicuous consumption and the heirarchical structure gives testimony and balance to prevent the Franciscan model from turning the Church into a strictly socialist organization. Stop looking at price tags and start looking for the spiritual value and maybe a light will go on.

315 posted on 02/23/2005 1:24:31 PM PST by Gerard.P (If you've lost your faith, you don't know you've lost it. ---Fr. Malachi Martin R.I.P.)
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To: sinkspur
The "earthly magnificence" of which you speak ... is not uplifting to the vast majority of Catholics.

How do you know? Have you taken a poll? Was Paul VI responding to any great popular clamor when he renounced the tiara? Even if you could prove that most Catholics agree with you, that would show only that they have succumbed to the pernicious modern fallacy of egalitarianism which has never been taught by the Church.

dying English model

It didn't seem to be "dying" in 2002 when over a million people lined the streets of central London (I was one of them) to celebrate the Queen's Golden Jubilee. Even republicans were surprised at how much feeling for the monarchy there still is. Same when the Queen Mother died a few months earlier. The heavily republican media are determined to bring down the British monarchy, so they always make things look worse than they are.

Christ was a suffering servant, not a prince.

He also rebuked Judas when Judas rebuked the woman who brought Him an expensive ointment. When worshipping God we should offer Him the best we can do--in ritual, art, architecture, and music. When resources are limited, simplicity is acceptable, but when grandeur is possible, it should be celebrated, not shunned.

317 posted on 02/23/2005 1:42:27 PM PST by royalcello
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To: sinkspur
"Pope as monarch" is not the model for the Church. Christ was a suffering servant, not a prince.

Wow! And to think all these centuries the Church has celebrated the end of its liturgical year with the Feast of Christ the King.

322 posted on 02/23/2005 2:10:20 PM PST by AlguyA
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