This is the crater that was found in the marshes when Saddam drained it. It is dated to 22-2300BC...and, I expect it along with other fragments is the source of the Soddom & Gomorra (plus other) stories recorded in the bible.
Posted on 02/21/2005 7:04:50 AM PST by Alex Marko
The fabled marshes of Mesopotamia, largely destroyed by Saddam Hussein in one of the worst pieces of ecological vandalism in recent history, can be partially restored, scientists said on Sunday.
The first scientific assessment of the marshes in southern Iraq, al considered by some to have been the Biblical location of the Garden of Eden, was presented to the American Association for the Advancement of Science meeting in Washington.
Saddam's drainage programme - accompanied by the persecution and forced relocation of the Marsh Arabs who had lived there for 5,000 years - reduced the wetlands to 7 per cent of their original 20,000 sq km area. But some of the former marshland is already recovering, following the actions of local people who broke down Saddam's dikes and dams after his regime fell in 2003.
The study by US, Canadian and Iraqi scientists showed a surprising rapid return of plants and wildlife to the areas that have been reflooded by the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. "The quality of the river water turns out to be much higher than many people had expected," said Curtis Richardson of Duke University in North Carolina, the study leader.
"Immediately after [the overthrow of Saddam] we saw just a dozen birds in the marshes," Prof Richardson said. "A year later, there were hundreds and now they are talking about many thousands."
The marshes were once an important resting point for waterfowl migrating between Siberia and Africa. The local otter species, which survived in the small area of the marshes along the Iranian border that were not drained, is also making a come-back.
Barry Warner, a botanist at the University of Waterloo in Canada, said: "There are encouraging signs that a vibrant and healthy plant community will re-establish itself in the newly wetted areas."
Because the marshes were drained only recently - mainly during the 1990s as Saddam took revenge on the Shia Marsh Arabs for their failed insurrection after the first Gulf War - many desiccated areas retain a large and viable seedbed.
But the scientists said a sustained international effort would be needed to support Iraqis' efforts to turn the current ad-hoc flooding into a sustainable long-term revival. Peter Reiss, director of the US Agency for International Development's marshland restoration project, said: "Within Iraq the destruction of the marshes has become a symbol of the oppression by Saddam's regime."
Most Iraqis support restoration, but there is no consensus about how much of the marshes to restore permanently given the competing demands for scarce water. Prof Richardson said 30 per cent would be a reasonable target.
Plans by Turkey and Iran to take more water from the Tigris and Euphrates rivers also pose a long-term threat to marshland restoration.
Even the Marsh Arabs have somewhat ambivalent attitudes about restoration of the wetlands. Their population, estimated at 350,000 in 1950, is now little more than 100,000, none of whom are living in their original homes, Mr Reiss said. Their traditional way of life, documented by Wilfred Thesiger, Gavin Maxwell and other authors, was based on fishing, water buffalo herding and reed cutting. This is virtually extinct today and most of the remaining Marsh Arabs are impoverished sedentary farmers. But according to Mr Reiss, many of them feel it will be impossible to recreate their way of life and would prefer outside investment in conventional agriculture.
Methinks you may be out of the loop on such matters.
Ahh well. Enjoy your orientation while you can.
You'd think they could encourage tourism.
He had to be really busy as the flood receded to wherever a worldwide flood would recede to.
He had to steam over to Australia to let out the koalas and kangaroos, then swing over to Kansas to let out the bison, down to Antarctica to let out the penguins, then up to the arctic to let out the polar bears.
He really had to hightail it to get back to Ararat.
Human reason and analysis, which you evolutionary zealots worship, cannot grasp the mind of God. The truth is there for you to find. I recommend it.
But since this is not a crevo thread, and you imposed it here, and I responded to it, I will end my contribution to hijacking this thread.
Ummm, I doesn't read nuthin' 'bout no continents a raisin' nor seas a sinkin' nor winds a blowin' (could be I just missed it but...). Some read into scripture what isn't there; That until the flood there was no rain, however, is scriptural.
A hole in your theory, again at the Grand Canyon: As the waters drained away they would have eroded down along existing drainages, not necessarily carved new ones.
Re#50: There is nothing wrong with questioning the scriptures if the goal is understanding. God never commanded us to turn off our minds....In fact, quite the opposite.
Just for the record, I used to be more of a God-directed evolutionist. The more I have learned (and questioned), the more I have moved toward (if not into) the creationist's camp.
> Human reason and analysis, which you evolutionary zealots worship
Wow. You're something special.
So can I assume that you Creationist zealots despise human reason and analysis?
> until the flood there was no rain, however, is scriptural
And so... ummm... where'd the rivers come from?
> As the waters drained away they would have eroded down along existing drainages, not necessarily carved new ones.
And what drainages would those have been?
Think of it this way: imagine the straight scientific view of the formation of the Earth. At some point, the very frist rain would have fallen. Now, the rivers needed to start from *something*; there woudl ahve been no existing drainages, yet the rivers managed to pull themselves together along the paths of least resistance.
Your 'creator' is made up out of whole cloth to suit your man-centered ideology.
Believe it or not, man's reason cannot come anywhere near the omniscience of God. Doesn't mean we shouldn't use our reason, and try, but we always fall short. I don't despise reason. I just know its fallibility in relationship to the mind of God.
And about my being 'special'.........no more than you orion. Created in God's image, and loved by Him, just like you.
> I'm not a creationist zealot.
Well, now. If an evolutionist who stands up for the facts is an "evolutionary zealot," then a Creationist is just as surely a "Creationist zealot."
> man-centered ideology
... which evolutionism ain't. Humans are not central to this or any other branch of science. It is *religion* that attempts to set man up as somethign special... we are the center of the solar system, center of the universe, pinnacle of life in the universe. Eh. Whatever.
Springs.
And what drainages would those have been?
See above.
The Bible does not say there weren't streams and/or rivers, in fact quite the opposite:
Genesis 2:5-6 "...and no plant of the field had yet sprung up, for the LORD God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no man to work the ground, 6 but streams [or mist] came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground..."
I too used to accept the "...the straight scientific view...", but I have learned that that is academic elitist snobbery. From gun control to global warming to evolution, I find many holes in the theories (sometimes lies) that are foisted off on us as fact. I believe the Bible is God's inerrant word and that the explanations for our scientific observations can square with it. It usually takes someone far brighter than myself to do it but nevertheless...
If you choose not to believe, that is your business. I'm okay with that. Just don't dismiss it out of hand, keep an open mind while you are questioning and you may come around too. And as you said this is all just idle speculation.
>> And so... ummm... where'd the rivers come from?
>Springs.
And where'd the water for the springs come from? The evaporation/rain/snow cycle is the only means to get water uphill. Without getting water uphill, your spring would run dry, and that would be the end of it.
> I have learned that that is academic elitist snobbery. From gun control to global warming to evolution...
... and relativity, and chemistry, and biology and geology, and gravity....
> Just don't dismiss it out of hand
I dismiss nothign out of hand. Many things, though, as so astonishingly silly that the amount of evidence required to refute them is quite small.
The garden of Eden was probably in Sundaland 8-15,000 years ago.
This is the crater that was found in the marshes when Saddam drained it. It is dated to 22-2300BC...and, I expect it along with other fragments is the source of the Soddom & Gomorra (plus other) stories recorded in the bible.
You presume that all natural systems have always been as they are now. I remember in my first geology class, the very learned professor dismissing "catastrophism" as a legitimate engine for geologic change. Just a very few years later it was widely accepted that the dinosaurs were wiped out by, guess what, a catastrophic asteroid impact.
I do not worship at the altar of science: Elsewhere in today's posts there is an article about gravity waves exceeding the speed of light. We have known for years that light can be slowed down. Both of which poke holes in relativity, and the others you've mentioned are equally prone to error. Just because some theories can be "proven" does not make all of them correct.
I have no idea how the water got to the top of the hill. Some interpretations say "a mist" rather than "a stream". Maybe that is how. In any event the Bible says there were rivers so I accept that there were rivers...I cannot say how they got there.
You have failed to refute anything, only to demonstrate the ignorance of both of us.
> I do not worship at the altar of science:
Nor does anyone else.
> You have failed to refute anything
Some things do not need to be refuted to be dismissed. Some things, however, need to be supported to be believed.
I can see that little boat now with a big fat dinosaur clogging the door and yelling- get me out of this wet stuff falling from the sky for the first time.---
Quite the contrary, you worship there so diligently that you have no room in your mind for the unseen.
Some things do not need to be refuted to be dismissed
Spoken like a liberal academic elitist snob.
Some things, however, need to be supported to be believed.
The scriptures have stood the tests of time far longer and better than most scientific theories. As someone earlier noted, archaeological confirmation continues to be discovered much to the dismay of the academic elite.
In matters of the spirit, I will not convince you, nor you me so let us end this. Besides, I really must return to my work.
"When the LORD God made the earth and the heavens - and no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth and no plant of the field had yet sprung up, for the LORD God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no man to work the ground, but streams came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground - the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being." Genesis 2: 4-7
"Whatever??" LOL! Not such a scientific response there, orion.
You have 'religion' wrong, if you are referring to Christianity. We are a unique creation, but we are only a created being. God is the center of the universe, and Jesus Christ......God become man........who came to earth to redeem us from sin (Adam's.....and ours).
We are just the only part of that universe that has the ability to think, to reason, to create...........because we are in God's image.
Certainly even cold hearted scientists such as yourself recognize that humans are above plants and animals...........or are you one of those wackos that thinks lobsters have souls? ;o)
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