Posted on 02/19/2005 4:34:21 PM PST by CurlyDave
Not the first time... There was a protest in Pretoria over the renaming of the place. For all the talk that goes on about learning english here, english in SA may wipe out afrikaans.
Agreed! God bless Bush and Condi.
When they renamed Pretoria (which was years ago!) people ignored it and still call it Pretoria.
:-)
I have some afrikaans pop and rap on my ipod. Rooi is good but airmail is expensive. I hope you're right and yeah I'm glad everyone ignored the whole renaming nonsense.
You know who have many,many tapes and I love several of the artists;too many to name.
Further I don't see an individual's preference for associating with others like them as a crime or sin.
Like most people, I live in an area with people like myself. My friends are people like myself and I feel comfortable where I live and I like it. I choose not to live in an area where I have nothing in common with my neighbors and that goes beyond the colour of one's skin.
are you in south africa right now?
have you been there since the end of apartheid?
then follow your own advice.
"Further I don't see an individual's preference for associating with others like them as a crime or sin."
My point is that individual preference and freedom of association was regulated in apartheid South African according to race. Of course it was different in different parts of SA (the Cape being the most notable exception), but in general you would not have the right to live in an area with people like yourself if those people's skin was a different color. That's racialist.
The quality of the areas in which certain groups were allowed to live was determined by the color of their skin. White villages and neighborhoods on the whole had better roads, better government services, etc. Coloureds and Indians less so and Black Africans even less so. That's racist.
"Under Mbeki,blacks have far LESS property rights!"
What I said was property rights were not guranteed under apartheid SA. You could look it up. Ironfocus (who I understand is South African) said the same thing. I'm not attacking anyone criticizing the current government. I am attacking the idea (so often put forth here) that apartheid was a picnic and the country should return to it.
"It was Mbeki and the ANC,after all,who have gone in,unannounced,and bulldozed house of blacks."
And I am saying that seizing property and destroying homes has been going on for much longer than 11 years in SA.
"The white government had left these people alone since they had set up these places."
Which does not mean, as you imply, that the apartheid government left ALL people and NEVER confiscated land or bulldozed houses.
"Your abject lack of knowledge on this subject is appalling,especially since you come onto these threads and write things that are patently false."
Prove me wrong with facts and I'll gladly acknowledge my error. Do not impugn my intentions.
How many South African newspaper do you read a week?
Why haven't you posted a single thing about the topic of this thread?
I was giving but one example of Mbeki's land grabs tactics. I didn't claim that land grabs didn't ever happen under Apartheid.
I know Ironfocus and unlike you,I know that he and his family live in America now.He knows my South African extended family.And,he knows that I know what I'm talking about.
Wanna try to paint yourself into yet another corner? LOL
"How many people do you talk with,weekly,who are in South Africa right now?
How many South African newspaper do you read a week?"
What does it matter? You say I've never been to South Africa and therefore I'm not qualified to post about it.
"Why haven't you posted a single thing about the topic of this thread?"
The thread is about South Africa trying to lure its expats home. Many of these people left shortly after the fall of apartheid and many of them are concerned about returning to their home with the spread of violent crime,economic uncertainties and new policial realities. Certain earlier posts hinted that things were better under apartheid and cyborg and I raised our objections. If I'm not posting directly on this topic, it may have something to do with the fact that I feel compelled to answer your personal attacks.
"You keep trying to impugn my intentions and attempt to put words in my mouth. Your projection complex is palpable."
You showed up on this thread and attacked me within 7 minutes, saying that I "haven't the slightest idea about what is going on in South Africa"
"I was giving but one example of Mbeki's land grabs tactics. I didn't claim that land grabs didn't ever happen under Apartheid."
And I was addressing a different topic altogether: the apartheid government's violation of land rights. If I read an implication where there was none, I'm sorry to have misinterpreted you. However, your posts to me are far too often based on such misinterpreations of my comments (and much more personally insulting), so I'm sure you will forgive me.
"I know Ironfocus and unlike you,I know that he and his family live in America now."
As I said, I believe Ironfocus is South African (by birth or upbringing, regardless of present location). If I may ask, Ironfocus, is this correct?
"And,he knows that I know what I'm talking about."
That's always debatable. Which is why we are here.
"Also try to think if you were black and in SA."
Have you tried to think of being white and being dispossessed of your land and livelihood and sometimes your life in Uganda?
Yes,Ironfocus was born and raised in South Africa;however,you implied that he still lives there,which he doesn't.
No,you haven't posted anything about the topic of this thread,until right nows,because I coerced you into it.And everyone can see that I did (post about the topic),long before you came onto this thread.That too matters. And what you began posting,had less than nothing at all to do with what I had posted to this thread before you came onto it.You're playing games now,attempting to diffuse the fact that you brought an agenda to the thread and don't care anything at all about the topic put up for discussion,with the posting of the article of the thread.
And I know well,people who left South Africa before,right after,and years after the end of Apartheid,as well as people who are still there and want to leave/don't want to leave.Thus,I can speak to the topic of this thread.
I'm not saying either or is right, I'm saying that promoting one system over another would be like promoting Communism orver Islamic radicalism.
To be honest, I was only 13 years old when Apartheid ended and back then, I was in Minneapolis public schools (Yes, you can guess what side of the poli-spectrum I was on back then) so I cannot remember much of it.
What I do remember though is how the UN was involved, and at first, they encouraged all the races to be involved, and not to turn it into a hate whitey fest, and instead, turn it into a system where the black population would try to work it out peacefully.
That lasted as long as a tire around the neck of a white person in South Africa. This makes me glad for one thing. The only role the UN is playing is that the UN workers are delivering pizza to our troops.
I bet that you are completely unaware of the fact that the ANC has gone after many blacks,because they don't belong to the same tribe they do.Mandela is an Xhosa and he and his wife and the ANC went after the Zulus;intimidating them,torturing them and yes,even killing them,and even spurring an internecine war amongst members of the Zulus.
The worst crime in South Africa,is now black on black;governmental crimes against other tribes than those who support the ANC,as well as just plain old crime.
Coloureds are not faring well either,now.
"Unlike you,I haven't brought anything over from past threads."
Then why did you say that I have never lived in South Africa and don't live there now? That wasn't discussed on this thread, so you either (a) brought it from an earlier thread when I talked about my experience in South Africa, or you (b) invented it.
"I was simply refuting your posts."
You were contesting what I said in my posts. You didn't refute them.
"And also,unlike you,I have posted about the topic of this thread and only veered off it,because you did and I was replying to your posts."
As I said before, I was posting on the topic, albeit indirectly. If you choose to reply to my posts that you consider off-topic, that's your choice, not mine.
"Yes,Ironfocus was born and raised in South Africa;however,you implied that he still lives there,which he doesn't."
I wrote:" Ironfocus (who I understand is South African) said the same thing." If that implies that he lives in South Africa (especially on a thread about South Africans living abroad!) maybe you are seeing what you want to see.
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