[SausageDog]

"(Gen 12:3 KJV) And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed."

Obviously you have gotten the modern State of Israel confused with the Israel of the Old Testament. The Israel of the Old Testament no longer exists. The Israel of the New Testament is the Church.

[IAF ThunderPilot]

ZOT!

[RaceBannon]

The Bible says no such thing.

In fact, the Bible clearly confirms the "Old State Israel" is the apple of God's eye.

First, the NATION of Israel, Israel as a clearly defined peole, will never be stopped::

(Jer 31:35 KJV) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:

(Jer 31:36 KJV) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.



That is crystal, that is why we have the clear knowlege of a Jewish people and always have had a knowlege of a Jewish peple, yet where are the Phoenicians? Where are the Edomites or Amalekites?

They are nowhere, because they are not God's chosen people.

Paul himself tells us that God still considers Israel His chosen people::

(Rom 11:1 KJV) I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

(Rom 11:2 KJV) God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

(Rom 11:3 KJV) Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

(Rom 11:4 KJV) But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

(Rom 11:5 KJV) Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

(Rom 11:6 KJV) And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

(Rom 11:7 KJV) What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

(Rom 11:8 KJV) (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

(Rom 11:9 KJV) And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompense unto them:

(Rom 11:10 KJV) Let their eyes be darkened that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

(Rom 11:11 KJV) I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

(Rom 11:12 KJV) Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

(Rom 11:13 KJV) For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

(Rom 11:14 KJV) If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

(Rom 11:15 KJV) For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

(Rom 11:16 KJV) For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

(Rom 11:17 KJV) And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

(Rom 11:18 KJV) Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

(Rom 11:19 KJV) Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

(Rom 11:20 KJV) Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

(Rom 11:21 KJV) For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

(Rom 11:22 KJV) Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

(Rom 11:23 KJV) And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

(Rom 11:24 KJV) For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

(Rom 11:25 KJV) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

(Rom 11:26 KJV) And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

(Rom 11:27 KJV) For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

It is clear, God is not done with Israel, and the Church is NOT Israael.

People who start telling others that the Church is a "New Israel" are unintentionally allowing or even creating a new Anti-Semitism.

[rdb3]

The Israel of the Old Testament no longer exists. The Israel of the New Testament is the Church.

---

WRONG! That's Replacement Theology.

The church is the church. Israel is Israel. They are not interchangeable.

[Lysshua]

According to Romans 11, you are wrong, and worse . Romans 11:19 So you will say, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in" True, but so ...Don't be arrogant,on the contrary be terrified...For if you were cut out of what is by nature a wild olive tree and grafted in to a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these natural branches be grafted back into their own olive tree!"

[kenavi]

The Israel of the Old Testament no longer exists. The Israel of the New Testament is the Church.

You as a Catholic are perfectly within your rights to say that the Catholic church succeeded to the covenant.

However, you cannot say that the Jewish religion of today does not descend, directly, from the Jewish people of the "Old Testament".

Jewish scholars led by Rabbi Yochanan ben Zakkai made a deal with the Roman General Vespasian to spare them to establish the academy of Yavneh. (It was this Rabbi who in response to his disciples' dismay: "How can we serve the Lord after the destruction of the Temple?", answered: "By acts of loving kindness.")

Before the last Judeo-Roman wars, Jews had spread to all corners of the Roman and Hellenic world, at least, notably to Spain, Turkey (where Saint Paul ne Saul was from), and to Rome itself. In one of the last Jewish wars, some Jews in the diaspora did rise up and got slaughtered, but there is no record of a systematic extermination of Jews by Romans, who soon were more preoccupied to hunt down Christians.

Also, at the beginning of the Common Era (e.g. A.D.), Jerusalem Jews began formulating the Talmud, the essence of post-Temple Jewish life to this day, and transfered this effort seamlessly to Baghdad after the Romans expelled most Jews from Palestine.

In fact, some Jews never returned from the Babylonian exile, and due to this and other Jewish communities in the diapsora, the Jews began celebrating many important holidays like the New Year on two days rather than just one, in case communities in different time zones made a mistake, they could still celebrate contemporaneously with their brethren.

Jews expelled from Israel went primarily to western Europe through the port of Marseilles. That is why the earliest great medieval Jewish scholars were located in southern France.

So there is a clear "apostolic succession" for the Jewish religion from the Old Testament/New Testament Jews. Yeah, there were probably converts, which is fine in Jewish tradition: the Prophet Jeremiah was a descendant of Canaanites, and the great Rabbi Akiba of the great Jewish rebellion was the grandson of a convert. Nevertheless, recent DNA testing of Jews across the world of the priestly Kohan caste reveal that virtually 100% possess a Chromosone found in no other people.

I hope you will stop making unfounded claims about the Jewish people's lineage.

May the Lord give you strength and success in the Catholic faith, the world's preeminent universal creed. Your Pope has been a blessing to the world and an example for all men of faith.

Best wishes.

[judicial meanz]

As long as you are quoting scripture to justify your position, you may want to look at this one too:

Isaiah Chapter 49:

"I will make your oppressors eat their own flesh. They shall be drunk with their own blood as with wine. And all mankind shall know that I the Lord am your savior, the Mighty One of Jacob, your Redeemer."



This particular scripture talks about people who oppress Israel, and the rewards they reap in the end.


Replacement Theology has one MAJOR flaw, besides the fact it is a killer theological doctrine developed by men who were blotted with the stain of anti-semitism. It has resulted in the murder of many people through the centuries. That position alone would make any reasonable person question its validity.

If the church replaced Israel, as you claim, how do you explain the fact Israel exists and has since 1948? By the logic of replacement theology, they should have just remained in the Diaspora forver.

[rmlew]

Given that you believe in Replacement Theology, what is your fealing on the Third Commonwealth of Israel.