Posted on 02/15/2005 4:58:17 PM PST by prairiebreeze
LOUISVILLE — Despite widespread media attention, most Presbyterian laity are not aware of the 216th General Assembly’s decision to “begin a process of phased, selective divestment” of companies profiting from the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza.
The findings by the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) Research Services office, based on a November 2004 survey of 3,000 ministers, elders, members and specialized clergy known as the Presbyterian Panel were released on the eve of a national conference here entitled “Steps Towards Peace in Israel and Palestine.”
Though their members may not know about the Assembly’s action (61 percent of members and 51 percent of elders), Presbyterian ministers are well aware of the controversial action. Sixty-five percent of pastors serving congregations and 50 percent of specialized clergy said they’re “very aware” of the decision. Another 30 percent of pastors and 36 percent of specialized clergy said they are “somewhat aware.”
Ministers and laity are divided on whether divestment is a good idea. More laity — 42 percent of members and 46 percent of elders — oppose selective phased divestment than favor it (28 percent of members, 30 percent of elders).
Pastors favor the Assembly’s action by a 48–43 percent margin and specialized clergy favor the divestment decision by a margin of 64–24 percent.
Those identifying themselves as “liberal” favor the divestment process (77 percent of ministers, 50 percent of members), while those calling themselves “conservative” oppose it (75 percent of ministers, 55 percent of members).
Among “moderates,” more laity oppose divestment than favor it (35–30 percent) and more ministers favor it (50–38 percent).
On other Israel/Palestine issues addressed by last summer’s Assembly, the Panel found the following:
More members, elders, and ministers are aware of the Assembly’s action opposing the construction of the separation barrier being constructed by Israel between itself and Palestinian territories than know about the divestment decision. And by large margins all categories of Presbyterians oppose the barrier — members, 41–30 percent; elders, 46–29 percent; pastors, 66–22 percent; and specialized clergy, 72–17 percent. Few laity but most ministers are aware that the Assembly declared “Christian Zionism inconsistent with the basic values of Reformed theology.” More laity agree (41–26 percent) that “because of God’s promises to Abraham, the contemporary state of Israel maintains a divine right to exist.” On the other hand, 53 percent of ministers disagree with that statement. More panelists disagree (46 percent of members, 43 percent of ministers) than agree (30 percent of members, 39 percent of ministers) that “Christians should seek to convert Jews to Christianity.” Correspondingly, a majority of each panel category agree that “Jews are already in covenant with God and do not need to become Christians to achieve salvation.” Few laity (12 percent) but most ministers are familiar with the controversy over a Presbyterian “messianic” congregation in Philadelphia that sparked considerable controversy last year. When asked, “Should the PC(USA) seek to establish ‘Messianic’ congregations … inviting those of Jewish background to explore Christian faith while maintaining Jewish religious and cultural practices?” more laity (44 percent) and pastors (54 percent) said “yes” than “no” (28 percent, 35 percent), while the reverse is true for specialized clergy (35 percent yes, 46 percent no).
Though their members may not know about the Assembly’s action (61 percent of members and 51 percent of elders), Presbyterian ministers are well aware of the controversial action. Sixty-five percent of pastors serving congregations and 50 percent of specialized clergy said they’re “very aware” of the decision. Another 30 percent of pastors and 36 percent of specialized clergy said they are “somewhat aware.”
This is from a few days ago, PCUSA website. The three day conference was to "instruct" attendees on the divestment proposal. Three days is quite a while to try to explain your case, especially when you don't present all sides of the issue...
It is stupid what they're doing and amazing how few know about it.
It sounds like indoctrination to me.
So basically the church is not going to be doing business with Jewish companies. Did I read that right?
They will pull out of companies they already have shares of or do business with that they believe aids the Israeli police or military. Like Caterpillar, they think those machines are only used to destroy Pali homes etc.
They threatened divestment of their share ownership of a Canadian oil company who was doing business in Sudan some years back. Finally the oil company caved to the threats and political pressure and pulled out of Sudan. What took the place of that western oil company was a hell of a lot worse as far as human rights, employment etc for the Sudanese.
They did something similar in S. Africa during the apartheid movements. The liken the Israeli situation to S. African apartheid. As far as I can tell, the faction of Presbyterians that make up PCUSA these days have been pro-pali (and anti-Israel) from almost the day that the state of Israel was created. Although they deny that...
Another freeper has brought up that point on other threads about this issue too.
didn't they also send a delegation to meet with Hizbollah?
Two meetings have occured with Hezbollah. One was last summer and involved a trip to the Holy Land by a Presby seminary group out of San Francisco IIRC. They have tried to maintain that they didn't expect to meet Hezbollah, had no hand in setting it up and were surprised and fearful etc when they realized these were Hezbollah members. The professor who led the seminary trip and his wife are both middle eastern descent I believe. And were conveniently unavailable for comment when they story came out.
The story about being afraid doesn't make a lot of sense when you think the news didn't come out about the seminary meeting with Hezbollah until after the two mid-level managers from PCUSA got canned for a different group that met with Hezbollah and shot off their mouths about how the Pali's were easier to negotiate with than the Israeli's and that got a lot of airtime on Pali TV. One would think that if the seminary students truly were afraid, they'd have told somebody after they left the area, indeed would have shouted it from the rooftops.
As it was, I've read a report that says the students were actually very sympathetic to the Hezbollah point of view.
I'm sure an awful lot of Jewish businesses have shares and investments with companies that actually aid Israel...militarily.
The impact of this could be pretty big, or am I inflating this?
I think it's more the political aspect thatimpacts the companies. For instance, Caterpillar is so huge that a withdrawal of PCUSA shares wouldn't matter much. But negative publicity, political hounding etc......
At least that's what happened with the Canadian oil co.
Okay. Thanks. I think it's disgraceful of the church and wrongheaded.
The aspect about this poll that needs to be highlighted--again and again--- is that 95% of the Presbyterian Church USA ministers stated they are aware of the divestment action taken by the PCUSAA leadership.
On the other hand, 61% of the membership in the PCUSA stated they were totally unaware of the Israel Divestment Action.
This is what happens when liberal/leftists ministers are allowed to occupy the pulpit. These leftist ministers will do all they can to squelch the news.
This is happening in all of the mainline/drainline churches--ECUSA, UMC, ECLA, UCC, AND PCUSA.
One way to shine some light into those very dark mainline sanctuaries is to send emails to your mainline church friends about what is going on in their denomination.
Yes, I'd noticed those percentages too.
It is foolish for any enlightened Freeper (and Freepers are the most enlightend on earth) to continue to attend these churches and support them financially. The very money you contribute to the church is used against what you believe.
Get out!!! Then these apostate "churches" will shrivel on the vine and die. That's what they deserve.
http://www.ncccusa.org/members/index.html
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