The Great American Job Sellout

google groups ^ | feb 2005 | Paul Craig Roberts

[Havoc]

It's a boom time and any American who can't get a good job today,is either not willing to move,or is incompetent.

Sorry, missed this.. little overgeneral aren't we. People who don't have an income can't just up and move now can they. You want to throw everyone into your special box after writing them off and throwing them to the dogs for profit and act like it's normal. It is not normal - nor has it ever been. It is normal in this society and others for people to lose jobs because businesses close or trim jobs. But closing whole profitable facilities and moving them over seas to engage in dumping against your home market for higher profit - subverting the market and making it impossible for companies in the home market to compete... In Washington and Jefferson's time, you'd already be hanging from a yard arm. So, spare us.

[Havoc]

Think we were just over that ground..

[international american]

"yall can bump and high five all you want, but you are KILLING the USA with your unrestrained greed."

Where do you get this unrestrained greed crap. I import palm oil from Malaysia, and export to them (so far) 60 American fast food franchises, which makes me 4 to 1 ratio in cash and jobs coming back into the USA. Furthermore, I agree with you about China. I have been there many times. They are NOT our friends, and never will be. I travel all over Asia, and know alot more than most FReepers do about their economies, and their attitudes toward the US. A lot of what you say is true. Hey, how bout that? But not all of it.

[Havoc]

It isn't treason. It may be unpatriotic, but it still isn't treason.

No, it's treason. The result is subversion of our market - running Americans out of their own market using dumping. In this case the dumping is the wage rate - not the product rate and the endpoint is the same. It is treason by definition.. whether intended or not.

[Mad Dawgg]

"Think we were just over that ground.."

Could be but I am still having troble deciphering...

The question still stands, Did NAFTA cause unemployment to rise? Yes or no?

[scottybk]

The HB-1 visas should be strictly limited to specialized and vital fields like medicine. I have no problem with an Indian nerosurgeon or Japanese skin graft specialist working on an H-1, but there is NO excuse for issuing these visas for jobs that educated Americans could fill. For example, I have two freinds, one an Indian and one a Canadian, who both work in the field of Architecture on H-1 visas in NYC. There are no doubt many capable and qualified Americans who would love to have a prestigious arctitect job in Manhattan, but two jobs that would be available have instead gone to foreigners. The H-1's original purpose was to fill positions only if no American citizen could be located to do the job, but it has morphed into a huge guest-worker program for deadbeat Eurotrash and Indian twentysomethings. It is not out fault that their Third World and socialist ecomonies are lousy places to work.

[durasell]

Treason, as I understand the definition, is subverting gov't and not private industry. Is it bad for the economy? Yes. Is it bad for the American people? Yes. But it's still legal until they pass a law against it.

[Mad Dawgg]

"But it's still legal until they pass a law against it."

Ack it is ANTI-HYPERBOLE MAN

[international american]

My opinion on the HB1 visas are this. It started out innocently enough(govt program) and has morphed into
a sham, where Americans earning 65000 a year, are being replaced with 30,000 Indians who hold the same acedemic credentials.

[Havoc]

trea·son   Audio pronunciation of "treason" ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (trzn)
n.

   1. Violation of allegiance toward one's country or sovereign, especially the betrayal of one's country by waging war against it or by consciously and purposely acting to aid its enemies.
   2. A betrayal of trust or confidence.


[Middle English, from Anglo-Norman treson, from Latin trditi, trditin-, a handing over. See tradition.]

[Download or Buy Now]
Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

Main Entry: trea·son
Pronunciation: 'trEz-&noun
Function: noun
Etymology: Anglo-French treison crime of violence against a person to whom allegiance is owed, literally, betrayal, from Old French traïson, from traïr to betray, from Latin tradere to hand over, surrender
: the offense of attempting to overthrow the government of one's country or of assisting its enemies in war; specifically : the act of levying war against the United States or adhering to or giving aid and comfort to its enemies by one who owes it allegiance —trea·son·ous /-&s/ adjective 

..covers a lot of ground. Betrayal of trust or confidence, giving aid and comfort to an enemy (subverting one's own economy in aid to china, etc), From the French etymology, betrayal, attempting to overthrow the government (of which subversion of the economy would be a part), Levying war is not limited to bullets - trade wars are just as damaging and damage to the nation by Bin laden included a strike at the heart of our economic sector. Yes, it is treason - by the very definition and in more ways than one.

[durasell]

Yes, tis I, able to convey myself over sizable buildings in less than two bounds, more powerful, relatively speaking, than a rapidly traveling train...

[nopardons]

It is a historical fact, that businesses in America have ALWAYS gone for the bottom dollar,and yes,thrown out people,brought others in,and paid them less. And in those days,there were NO government programs,none at all,to act as safety nets.

Look at the history of the railroads,for example. The types of people who were engaged to lay track were replaced time and time again by different groups,the last being the Chinese.

In regards to manufacturing jobs and coal mining,as each new immigrant flood came in,the older groups were displaced,shoved out,and replaced by new workers,for less.

Large department stores were also notorious for displacements as well; not to mention the fact the owners and upper managements' pay was so much higher than those who worked for them,that you would be amazed!

Have you never heard of the HAYMARKET RIOT?

In Washington and Jeffersons' time,the Industrial Revolution had not come to these shores,but slavery was well entrenched.And it would really help you,if you knew at least a little history!

I wouldn't have been hung at all;that's just what you wish you could do to me. You want to silence those who can easily refute you.

If someone doesn't have a job,but refuses to do anything about getting,demanding that a job come to him/her and/or that the government should demand businesses to provide a job with a good salary and great benefits...that's SOCIALISM/COMMUNISM and most unAmerican!

There ARE IT jobs out there.Those who don't have one and want one,but refuse to do something about getting one,have only themselves to blame. The same holds true of any other kind of job.

[Mad Dawgg]

"My opinion on the HB1 visas are this. It started out innocently enough(govt program) and has morphed into a sham, where Americans earning 65000 a year, are being replaced with 30,000 Indians who hold the same acedemic credentials."

Are you insuinating that Government intervention into the Free Market had unintended consequences?

I am shocked I tell you, shocked!

[nopardons]

It isn't even "unpatriotic"!

[durasell]

You have to look at the legal definition as put down in the Constitution...

Treason. A breach of allegiance to one's government, usually committed through levying war against such government or by giving aid or comfort to the enemy. The offense of attempting by overt acts to overthrow the government of the state to which the offender owes allegiance; or of betraying the state into the hands of a foreign power. Treason consists of two elements: adherence to the enemy, and rendering him aid and comfort. Cramer v. U. S., U.S.N.Y., 325 U.S. l, 65 S.Ct. 918, 9327 89 L.Ed. 1441. See 18 U.S.C.A. § 2381. A person can be convicted of treason only on the testimony of two witnesses, or confession in open court. Art. III, Sec. 3, U.S. Constitution

[Mad Dawgg]

"Yes, tis I, able to convey myself over sizable buildings in less than two bounds, more powerful, relatively speaking, than a rapidly traveling train..."

OK I just snorted Long Island Iced tea right up through my nose on that one...

[nopardons]

LOL

[durasell]

I said it "may be" unpatriotic. I'm still undecided on the issue of whether a company should/can be judged by the same standards as an individual. For instance, one job I had, they told me -- very clearly -- "we're like a family here." But they weren't like my family at all. Members of my family would loan me money, let me crash on their couch, sober me up when I got drunk and help me deal with emotionally unbalanced girlfriends with tendencies toward violence...

[international american]

: ) Please name me one govt program instituted in the last 40 years that did not come back to bite us all in the A$$!

Start with Lyndon's "great society" welfare program.

[nopardons]

That just isn't true! The people on FR complain about the Indian HB1 workers and completely forget about the HUGE influx of South African and Irish IT workers.

And,as I have repeatedly said,there is NO reason,no reason at all,for American IT workers to NOT having well paying jobs today.There is a glut of jobs,well paying jobs,out there,begging to be filled.