Posted on 02/14/2005 10:36:58 AM PST by Alouette
You are wrong. Abortion is murder.
Kewl. Stopping cultural suicide.
The baby is innocent in the absolute. A killing in a war may or may not be just, but the casualty has lived and has accumulated some sin. To kill in an abortion is then a greater sin.
A mother had made a decision to get pregnant, or at least, to expose herself to a probability of pregnancy. With this comes the acceptance of risk associated with childbirth. The baby, to the contrary, had not assumed any risks. When (very rarely these days) a choice must be made, the surgeon may kill the baby only as an inintended and unavoidable side effect of protecting the life of the mother. In a wholly symmetrical case he should save the baby.
Because the Supreme Court, in its infinite wisdom (spit) insists, against all rationality, that the slaughter of the unborn is a Sacred Constitutional Right. In a sane country, armed police would shut down abortuaries.
This country is deeply schizophrenic.
When (very rarely these days) a choice must be made, the surgeon may kill the baby only as an inintended and unavoidable side effect of protecting the life of the mother. In a wholly symmetrical case he should save the baby.
Do you not see a contradiction in what you're suggesting? Why should the surgeon in an unavoidable circumstance sacrifice the life of the fetus for the sake of the mother? If, as you say, the mother has both lived and sinned, why should she be spared in favor of the "wholly innocent never-having sinned fetus?
You are misreading my post. The baby's life takes precedence. Do I need to rephrase #23?
I'm one of those women who had to choose between risking my own life or aborting my "fetus".
I had been told all my life that I should never have children because it would kill me or if I was fortunate enough to survive that my child would either die or be born with severe birth defects. To say that my pregnancy was difficult is an understatement. I spent a large part of it in the hospital. I had seizures during my first trimester. During my second trimester, the doctors were afraid that I would be blind by the end of my pregnancy. And during the third, they were afraid that my kidneys were going to shut down.
But I went through with it. I wanted my child to live so much that I was willing to die for her. I was very lucky. I made it through the pregnancy and gave birth to a healthy daughter who is 14 years old now. My life without her wouldn't be worth living.
If as you say, abortion is murder, does that include the first trimester? Should we convict and apply capital punishment to anyone who performs an abortion? Wouldn't the woman be an "accomplice to murder?"
Should abortion be outlawed? Yes, unless the mother's life is endangered. Is it murder? No.
And to that I say G-d bless you and your dear daughter. The sacrifice you made is heart-warming.
I'm just trying to point that it is hyperbole to call abortion murder. It is wrong, should be outlawed, but is not murder.
I'm afraid you're misreading your own post. You say that, and I will quote,"a choice must be made, the surgeon may kill the baby only as an unintended and unavoidable side effect of protecting the life of the mother."
If the mother has lived and sinned, why should she be protected. The baby, as you say, is completely sin-free.
There's a saying that when you save one life, it's as if you are saving the world.
This story illustrates that saying.
Mark
And this is in keeping with even the most orthodox of Jewish sects.
My Grandfather was Orthodox, and one Yom Kippur (a fast day, where no food or water is to be consumed, and one of the "High Holy Days") he became a bit dizzy. The Rabbi ordered my Grandfather to stop praying, to drink some water, and to rest a while (he was well into his 80's). After giving him some more water and a snack, the Rabbi drove my Grandfather home, which he would have never done. But it's a far greater sin to put your health in jeapordy than to blindly "follow the rules." That and the Rabbi would never have asked anyone else to break the rules of not working on Yom Kippur (by driving).
Mark
All life should be protected when possible, regardless of the state of sin. You posed an issue of so-called double effect, when saving the mother needs to bring about a death of the baby. Then, as in all such dillemmae, for the good (life of mother) to be pursued, the evil (death of the baby) must be unavoidable, unintended, and a side effect of the good. For example, a surgeon may do a procedure that carries risks for the baby if that is the only way to save the mother. He may not do the procedure where the baby is killed to make the procedure safer or more convenient, but the procedure is possible without killing the baby.
The surgeon also may not do the procedure if the death of the baby is certain, like I said before.
Thank you for your kind words. I really don't think it's necessary for us to argue about this. You said that you would like to see abortion outlawed and so would I. We may use different words to describe the procedure, but ultimately our desire is the same and that's what matters.
This is the position that halachah takes, but medical science has advanced to a stage where this situation can be avoided.
In the context of the "pro-choice" argument, this is a red herring. "Choice" is not the issue here. Theraputic abortions to save the mother's life were always performed legally even before Roe vs. Wade.
Once abortion is put back into it's proper place in the murder statutes, will you stop apologizing for abortionists?
Besides, to get the desired effect, all you would need to do is incarcerate a couple of hard-core abortionists and the rest would disperse and go out of business.
Yes
Should we convict and apply capital punishment to anyone who performs an abortion?
Yes (although I doubt the death penalty would ever be applied here.)
Wouldn't the woman be an "accomplice to murder?"
Yes
Should abortion be outlawed? Yes, unless the mother's life is endangered. Is it murder? No.
Every effort should always be made to protect both mom and baby until the baby can survive outside the womb. If a woman who is not healthy enough to have a baby becomes pregnant, she owes it to the child to continue the pregnancy as long as possible, even if it endangers her own life.
Tops Schindler by several hundred.
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