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USS San Francisco Commander Guilty Of Hazarding Vessel
Navy/Defense/Electric Boat | 2/12/2005 | ROBERT A. HAMILTON

Posted on 02/13/2005 10:23:15 AM PST by NCSteve

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To: GGpaX4DumpedTea

The sub may not be soundless, but there are techniques, which I am not at liberty to discuss on a public forum (Loose lips sink ships is literally the case), that can be used to keep the sub from being detected.


81 posted on 02/13/2005 3:57:14 PM PST by deaconjim (Freep the world!)
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To: fooman

Is this the one you refer to?

DECISION TRAPS : THE TEN BARRIERS TO DECISION-MAKING AND HOW TO OVERCOME THEM
by Edward Russo

It does sound good. I'll have to see if I can dig up a copy. Thanks.

However, books like this always bring to mind Niven's Laws numbers 17 and 18:

17) No technique works if it isn't used.

18) Not responsible for advice not taken.

Niven's Laws are great - the rest of them can be found here:

http://www.larryniven.org/stories/nivens_laws_2002.htm


82 posted on 02/13/2005 3:58:56 PM PST by Phsstpok ("When you don't know where you are, but you don't care, you're not lost, you're exploring.")
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To: deaconjim

I know what you're talking about; that's not being done any longer (that I know of, of course).


83 posted on 02/13/2005 4:09:40 PM PST by Doohickey ("This is a hard and dirty war, but when it's over, nothing will ever be too difficult again.”)
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To: fooman

The Navy does not produce navigation charts. The National Imagery and Mapping Agency (NIMA, formerly DMA does).


84 posted on 02/13/2005 4:11:27 PM PST by Doohickey ("This is a hard and dirty war, but when it's over, nothing will ever be too difficult again.”)
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To: Tallguy; Doohickey
You're absolutely correct.
The original USS Scorpion was cut in half, had Polaris missile tudes inserted, and became the USS George Washington. Except for the Rocket Locker, the Washington had a lot in common with Fast Attacks. Not only was it faster than later Boomers, it also had six torpedo tubes (and two firing rams).

The new USS Scorpion later sank, but that's a discussion for a different thread.

85 posted on 02/13/2005 4:11:30 PM PST by SmithL (Proud Submariner)
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To: Phsstpok

You dont need to read the book. you get it. One of the examples is the O rings in the space shuttle.

They worked 60+ times, so they would always work....

Variations include - I drive drunk all the time and nothing happens- or I crashed but I didn't do much damage.

Conversely, an accident could happen with all procedures being followed properly....


Looks like in this case- the 'other' official detailed maps were not consulted by this loosey goosey crew. But then the question becomes- did the capt have time to clean this part of the boat up? Turnaround agents should be given time or he should have at least been allowed to break the crew up and bring in proven hands- while the others shaped up.

So now we have lost a turnaround guy. Shame.


86 posted on 02/13/2005 4:11:46 PM PST by fooman (Get real with Kim Jung Mentally Ill about proliferation)
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To: Doohickey

Right. But presumably these charts are continually 'qualified' as an 'accurate chart'


87 posted on 02/13/2005 4:13:24 PM PST by fooman (Get real with Kim Jung Mentally Ill about proliferation)
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To: fooman

Nope! If a chart area is surveyed, it is updated. If there is a known hazard or geographical change it is added. Otherwise it stays exactly the same. Forever.


88 posted on 02/13/2005 4:21:22 PM PST by Doohickey ("This is a hard and dirty war, but when it's over, nothing will ever be too difficult again.”)
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To: SolitaryMan

There is - and it's on one of the other threads about the upcoming Captain's mast. I don't know where the picture came from, but you won't believe that this Sub could possibly have made it back to any port with the damage to the sonar bow.

I'm off to find the pic and post it here for ya. Back in a few but will check to see if someone else has found it first...........


89 posted on 02/13/2005 4:29:40 PM PST by TruthNtegrity
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To: Doohickey

Right, they are requalified which is the same. You know what I mean and seem more interested in arguing semantics.


90 posted on 02/13/2005 4:43:31 PM PST by fooman (Get real with Kim Jung Mentally Ill about proliferation)
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To: Doohickey

Don't you just hate the way stuff changes and makes you feel so old?


91 posted on 02/13/2005 4:46:51 PM PST by deaconjim (Freep the world!)
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To: NCSteve

Mooney "hazarded the vessel..."

Is that the same as when a troll "stunes their beeber?"

Sorry. ;)


92 posted on 02/13/2005 4:50:54 PM PST by Diana in Wisconsin (Save The Earth. It's The Only Planet With Chocolate.)
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To: fooman
The unstated risk is that we create a bunch of risk averse general mcclellands when a war breaks out.

It's not like the submarine force hasn't 'been there, done that' already! After Pearl Harbor, a few carriers and the Pacific sub force was all we had to prosecute war against Japan until we could rebuild our fleet.

I haven't got the exact figures handy but many sub skippers (maybe 30% or more?) were so risk-adverse they were canned or voluntarily gave up command for not being willing to risk their boats in attacking the enemy! Additionally torpedoes were so valuable (and scarce) at the time that they hadn't been thoroughly tested under war-like conditions. The guys there on the frontlines knoew the damn things weren't working properly and complained, but were ignored by the REMFs... until a commander on-scene made several test shots and proved they were faulty.

As an ex-sub sailor I'm afraid that we've returned to 'those far gone days of yesteryear' with regards to our present day nuke fleet. No skipper will be willing to think outside the box, because that'll be the end of his career. Pretty sad, because I think Kevin Mooney was one of our best.

93 posted on 02/13/2005 4:52:14 PM PST by IonImplantGuru (Pereant qui ante nos nostra dixerunt. (May they perish who have expressed our bright ideas before us)
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To: deaconjim

YES. Remember CONALOG?


94 posted on 02/13/2005 4:57:04 PM PST by Doohickey ("This is a hard and dirty war, but when it's over, nothing will ever be too difficult again.”)
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To: Doohickey
"YES. Remember CONALOG?"

LOL, I've worked on that beast, I hated the day we had to cover it and leave it covered though. I believe it was when the Skipjack banged the bottom when that happened.
95 posted on 02/13/2005 5:03:18 PM PST by WHBates
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To: IonImplantGuru

It seems I have struck a chord....


96 posted on 02/13/2005 5:04:12 PM PST by fooman (Get real with Kim Jung Mentally Ill about proliferation)
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To: WHBates

Yep, people were getting too much sleep during the midwatch.


97 posted on 02/13/2005 5:09:41 PM PST by Doohickey ("This is a hard and dirty war, but when it's over, nothing will ever be too difficult again.”)
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Comment #98 Removed by Moderator

To: Doohickey
LOL, I had guessed that some helmsman thought he saw a hitchhiker on the road and decided to park the boat to pick him up.
99 posted on 02/13/2005 5:13:00 PM PST by WHBates
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To: Nita Nupress

From the other threads it is my understanding that at that speed the sub makes so much noise that active Sonar is useless.


100 posted on 02/13/2005 5:15:17 PM PST by Ernest_at_the_Beach (A Proud member of Free Republic ~~The New Face of the Fourth Estate since 1996.)
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