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To: papertyger
I'm sure in the Keyes household opinions are not valued just because you happen to like them, but because you can argue their merits. If daughter is holding opinions reprehensible to her father's, and refuses to engage father to give him the opportunity to refute those opinions, what is left?

How very logical. I can't fault your logic at all, but we're not talking about logic here, but familial relationships. Relationships between humans with feelings, not Vulcans. I love my daughters. There a million and one things my daughters could do that I wouldn't approve of, things that could hurt me, things that could make me angry, things that could dissapoint me, but not much that could make me turn my back on them.

My oldest daughter, the mother of my granddaughter, is 26. She's an adult, and as an adult she really doesn't owe me the opportunity to refute any opinions she holds. Like any adult, she can choose what she wants to put on the table for discussion, and what she doesn't. What a petty, petty man I'd be if I turned my back on her for not seeing things my way.

82 posted on 02/13/2005 12:03:57 PM PST by Melas
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To: Melas
How very logical. I can't fault your logic at all, but we're not talking about logic here, but familial relationships. Relationships between humans with feelings

I disagree, and I'm well aqauinted with the "feelings" rejoinder. People don't use logic because they are unfeeling, they use logic because it's fair. It doesn't favor anyone. It's really the only way disagreeing parties can quarrel without resorting to "dirty tricks" (read fallacious reasoning)

Now carping against logic because one is not familiar with its precepts , or resent its immunity to temper tantrums (which is usually the case) is another matter entirely. No black and white issue can't be made gray if you spin it hard enough.

I'm not implying you do these things, but I am implying you are subject to being swindled by them.

What a petty, petty man I'd be if I turned my back on her for not seeing things my way.

We aren't discussing your independent daughter, we're discussing Keyes very dependent daughter who does owe him an explanation, so all that is just posturing.

Be that as it may, you'd be a foolish foolish man to reject a G-d for a daughter that rejects you, and make no mistake, it is a very personal rejection.

98 posted on 02/13/2005 12:54:22 PM PST by papertyger (If you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough.)
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To: Melas
There a million and one things my daughters could do that I wouldn't approve of, things that could hurt me, things that could make me angry, things that could dissapoint me, but not much that could make me turn my back on them.

I believe much like you do, but I have to say there is one thing that could cause me to turn my back on my child in a heartbeat.

If I thought that would cause them to really think about something - something I believed was very harmful to them - I would turn my back. I would do so to hide my own tears, but I would keep my back turned until they had done the thinking they needed to do.

Maya is mentally ill and needs treatment. While she refuses to seek it she is hurting herself and those who love her. Maybe Dr. Keyes has chosen the right approach to get her to seek treatment, maybe he hasn't. Only time will tell, which is the biggest problem with being a parent. But if I thought it would accomplish her seeking treatment I would do the same thing and I would call it love.

On a similar note, I know two young married women. One was thinking of leaving her husband. She called her mom to talk about the possibility of divorce. Her mom said, "Whatever you do, if you divorce him don't come here. When you married him this ceased being your home. If you leave him you have to make your own home somewhere else." She decided to stay and, after resolving some issues, they have been happily married for over 20 years.

The other also called her mother to discuss the possibility of divorce. Her mother said, "Well, if you do decide you have to leave, you can move back in here until you get your feet back on the ground." The daughter left within 2 weeks.

Which mother loved her daughter more?

Shalom.

170 posted on 02/14/2005 10:01:01 AM PST by ArGee (Having homosexual sex makes as much sense as drinking beer through your a$$.)
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