Posted on 02/10/2005 8:00:51 AM PST by PresbyRev
Forgive me. I'm sorry I was so harsh. We're both on the same side. I've seen Gary DeMar's work and knew that he would never join the other side. But, I should not have been so unkind.
No problem. We all tend to get a little worked up about things on this site. That's what makes it so much fun. Wouldn't want it any other way. And you were right.
"Amongst other strange things said of me, I hear it is said by the deists that I am one of the number; and, indeed, that some good people think I am no Christian. This thought gives me much more pain than the appellation of Tory; because I think religion of infinitely higher importance than politics; and I find much cause to reproach myself that I have lived so long, and have given no decided and public proofs of my being a Christian. But, indeed, my dear child, this is a character which I prize far above all this world has, or can boast." Patrick Henry, from a letter to his daughter in 1796
According to the hate America parasites that are being allowed to suck the blood out of this Nation, George Bush lies about everything.
The example of honesty that parade before everyone is Bill Cliton.
I think you meant to post this to someone else. I don't deny that the FF were all Christians of one sort or another.
Thanks for your posts.
DeMar is good about conveying the Christian worldview in a style accessible to a popular readership. Some good articles, out of many, are:
In the State We Trust
http://www.americanvision.org/articlearchive/02-07-05.asp
Cut the Bible Some Slack
http://www.americanvision.org/articlearchive/02-04-05.asp
Life, Liberty and Property
http://www.americanvision.org/articlearchive/10-18-04.asp
I Know It's True Because I Saw It On TV
http://www.americanvision.org/articlearchive/12-02-04.asp
Now why the icon of the seprationists would choose a Christian minister in a country that was not founded on Judeo/Christian principles to teach Christian morality to the Indian is for the spearationists to explain.
And when they are done with that they can begin to work on why Madison and Jefferson passed a law in Virginia criminalizing the breaking of the Sabbath.
And they were to prove Israel by them, to know whether they would hearken unto the commandments of the Lord, which he commanded their fathers by the hand of Moses. --Judg. 3:4--Boot Hill
No. From the beginning the French Revolution was of a different cast altogether. Compare the French Declaration of the Rights of Man and our Declaration of Independence.
Our rights are seen as inalienable, self-evident and invioable because of the Creator. The Constitution merely recognizes what is; the French vested 'Rights' in the State. The State enumerates what rights its citizens have or don't have. What the State gives, the State can take away - including life.
The French Revolution was anti-Christian from the start. It was a mob uprising that a group of elite humanists tried to control. The American War for Independence was executed lawfully through lower magistrates; not mob action. America's founders were not seeking a Revolution, but the reclamation of Rights abused or ignored by the British Crown. From beginning to end, the French set about an entirely different course than the Americans & thank God for that.
They're quite similar, actually. If anything, the Rights of Man are more clear as to the existence of a Supreme Being, natural rights etc., than the US Constitution.
The French Revolution was anti-Christian from the start.
That would have been a surprise to even Robespierre, who was a fairly devout Christian at the start of the revolution.
--- There is no meaningful concept of "right" and "wrong" apart from an authority able to impose such.
If enslaving you makes me happy, there's no meaningful sense in which you can say I'm "wrong" to do so. All you can do is squeal your disapproval.
Now you say:
Now we're faced with the fact that you appear not to know the difference between opinion and fact. Thus the reference to relativism above.
Since you're positing relative reality, rather than just relative morality, I also mention solipsism--after all, the belief that each person's reality is unique, is equivalent to denying the existence of reality.
Your comment;
" --- There is no meaningful concept of "right" and "wrong" apart from an authority able to impose such."
-- Is a relativistic claim.
In effect YOU are now denying the existence of the reality of right & wrong.
http://www.the-compass.com/books.htm
Otto Scott's book, second or third down on the page that the link above takes you to, on Robespierre offers a somewhat different perspective than your own. I heartily recommend it.
Oh, Robespierre went crazy as the Revolution progressed, but he started off as a fairly normal guy who had some pretty good ideas. The Rights of Man are on par with the Constitution, IMO. Of course, Robespierre and company suspended them a few years after they first instituted them.
Where does it say that?
YES VIRGINIA – THERE WAS A REFORMATION! America’s Birth
A Revolt Against The Church of England & The Church of Rome.
God’s great providence brought the salvation of the true faith from Catholicism and with it the American experiment.
The Reformation said the Papacy was never “the Church of Jesus Christ” and Peter was not the “rock,” what he believed (that Christ was the Savior - Son of God) was the foundation. Jesus was the “rock” – the Chief Cornerstone.
We do not say that “no one who was ever in the Catholic Church was saved,” indeed all who profess Christ as their savior are saved. We believe that the Catholic Popish system has stolen from humanity the personal loving relationship that Jesus sought for each believer.
The strength of our Puritan heritage is what caused America to succeed through its infancy. The question for the Puritans, the reformers, was “will the Bible or the Pope rule us?
The Roots of the Reformation; Preaching, Scholarship, Martyrdom.
John Gerstner - historian stated “the Puritan movement in England & America was the most godly movement since the days of the Apostles themselves.”
1000 Years of Reformation Timeline (A.D.)
1160 The Waldenses martyred by Roman Catholic Church – a group started by Peter Waldo, they were formally declared heretics by Pope Lucius III in 1184 and by the Fourth Lateran Council in 1215.
In 1211 more than 80 were burned as heretics at Strasbourg, beginning several centuries of persecution. The Waldenses proclaimed the Bible as the sole rule of life and faith. They rejected the papacy, purgatory, indulgences, and the mass, and laid great stress on gospel simplicity See Waldensian Catechism (c.1489).
1229 Bible placed on Index of Forbidden Books in Toulouse.
1290 King Edward I expels all Jews from England
1302 Pope Boniface – Issues the Papacy Act “The Unam Sanctam” All men everywhere in the world are now under the authority and dictates of the Pope. Subjection to the Pope is necessary for salvation.
1314 Battle of Bonifer - William Wallace
1381 Wyclif translates the Latin Bible & condemns Catholic interpretation of the Lord’s Supper & Mass.
1383 Wycliff translates Latin Bible into English. Now people can read the scriptures. Many who would say “the Roman Catholic church is wrong! - here is what the scripture says” were now hunted down by the church, were called the “Lawlers” and were burned alive for revealing scripture to the “commoners.”
1401 King Henry 4th Continues hunting down Lawlers and if any peasant is caught with a bible he is burned alive.
1412 Pope declares all bibles to be burned!
1415 Council of Constance actually exhumes the body of Wycliff and dismembers it scattering the remains to the countryside to prevent his resurrection in the heavenly life.
By now the “Word” is loosed and the truth of scripture is freeing men everywhere – the roots of Reformation have begun to take hold and will not be stopped.
1450 Guttenberg printing press is invented.
1453 The Turks capture Constantinople – and ancient Christian citizens flee. But they bring with them “The Septuagint Greek Text” – now translation will move forward in correctness!
1456 The Latin Guttenberg Bible is published
1476 1st Greek grammar book is published – scholarship is growing.
1480 Greek Lexicon is published
1488 1st printed Hebrew Bible is introduced for academic study
1492 Ferdinand & Isabella on behalf of the Papacy expel 300,000 Jews. Columbus (a Jew?) sails for the new world. Also in this year Oxford College hires Prof. Grossen to teach Greek for the first time in modern history. Now it’s discovered Mary couldn’t be a Mediatrix (intercessor) and there’s a flood of wrong scripture coming from Vatican.
1506 The Hebrew Lexicon is published.
1516 Erasmus completes the first Greek New Testament.
1517 Martin Luther makes the scene with his “95 thesis” about 500 years after the “reformation” has begun.
1522 The "Complutensian Polyglot Bible" is printed. Comparable versions side-by-side.
“I will cause the plowboy that driveth the fields to know more scripture than the Vicar” - William Tyndale
1523 Cambridge University students studying for the RC priesthood meet secretly at the “White Horse Inn” to discuss Martin Luther’s doctrine.
Henry 8th Signs the “Supremacy Act” in a revolt against the power of the Pope for denying him the right to divorce, declares himself and his Holy Throne the head of all religion in England and creates the Anglican Church.
Note: History records that “Chaucer” is the father of the English language, but according to a joint commission of the British Library and the US Library of Congress “that mantle rightly belongs to William Tyndale. It is Tyndale who taught Shakespeare how to write and his work was read by ten thousand times as many people as ever read Chaucer.”
The English language was spread through the reading of the word of God.
For his trouble and his love of the knowledge of “Sola Fida” (salvation by faith alone), Tyndale was burned to death by the king!
Fact: Historians in many areas want to forget and deny the burnings that occurred by the thousands across the European continent in the name of the Popes of Rome and the nobles of England. And in the minds of those who understand the debt owed for the sacrifice made by these men, women and yes even children who would burn and die rather than renounce their faith in the mercy of Christ, their blood cries out today as fresh as when it was spilled and we pray peace for their souls and a thank you to them for their glorious sacrifice.
King Edward’s half-sister who was known as “Bloody Mary” Queen of Scots was also a vigorous burner of the saints and as a result 800 Protestants leave England and go to Geneva.
At this time is also the beginning of “Calvinism” and there are more “burnings.”
1554 The time of King James – one of the most despicable homosexual kings to ever live puts his name to a bible actually commissioned by his wife – Queen Elizabeth.
Queen Elizabeth assumes the throne and re-instates the Supremacy Act. She says the Puritans must swear allegiance to the Queen & agree to use England’s Common Book of Prayer and observe all the rights of the Anglican Church or face imprisonment. Those that refused were called “non-conformists.”
1565 Thomas Cartwright and other clergy throw off the garments of the Roman and Anglican Churches and say, “enough -we are preaching the Bible.”
1566 All preaching licenses are terminated and only those who would sign orders of submission were now licensed.
1567 Thomas Cartwright, Robert Brown, Robert Harrison, John Robinson and William Bradford – meeting in secret are teaching & leading souls into pure faith in the word.
1571 Cartwright formally opposes the Common Book of Prayer & the Presbyterian Church begins.
This is where it gets really good!
1572 Mary - Queen of Scotts would like Queen Elizabeth dead so she can become Queen of all England. Queen Elizabeth finds out about her intentions. Elizabeth has her confidante Davidson who is her legal council and adviser prepare an order to execute Queen Mary for sedition. But because executing rival queens is risky, she accuses Davidson of tricking her into signing the death order. She throws Davidson into confinement in the Tower of London where he is visited by William Brewster who he is mentoring and exhorting in the Puritan doctrine and the Pilgrim cause.
Brewster leaves & goes to Scrubby & spends the rest of his life publishing tracts against the Church of England and in favor of religious freedom & faith in Christ alone from the Scrubby Manor House. His group is meeting here secretly where many English nobles spend there time. Besides Brewster, the group included John Robinson, Richard Clifton, and William Bradford who later wrote “Plymouth Plantation.”
This was the beginning of the break with England.
1604 King James 1st takes the throne and begins to drive out more believers in the Pilgrim cause. The Puritans bring an offer of allegiance to the church “The Millinary Petition” argued at Hampton Courts but they held against the signs of the cross, clergy vestments and in favor of preachers marrying. King James refuses to concede to them. Now they know they must leave England in order to practice the faith.
1607 These Pilgrims have left England and have gathered in Holland & were building their congregation. They would rather die than live under the dictates of the church at Rome or the Anglican Church system. Soon they were sailing for America where they would build a life free of religious oppression and where they would have the freedom of religion* that they sought..
1646 Westminster Confession called “The Papacy” of Rome the “Anti-Christ.”
It is a blight on American Christians today that they do not study the scriptures and do not know their history. It is said “those who don’t know their history are doomed to repeat it.” And it is a blight on American Christians that they no longer control what is taught their children. As Doug Phillips of Vision Forum said History was once taught without dishonesty and agenda “before the public school system had “matured to putrification.”
It’s February 2005 - Look where we are today in sad America!
*Not freedom “from” religion but freedom from Kingly and Popish dictates - the freedom to be ruled by the most perfect and just dictates of the Word of God. And the liberty to enjoy the unalienable rights given to free people, throughout His kingdom.
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