Milan Ivanovic's car blown up in Kosovo

I'm albanian myself and i know how we are. Especially Kosovars. Violence will always take priority over diplomacy with albanians.

This is who you want us to support mark...

"the Federation of American Scientists, a prominent group of researchers which often consults U.S. administrations, the KLA contains 1,000 mercenaries from Albania, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Bosnia, Croatia and Yemen. KLA training camps are in four Albanian cities under the influence of former Albanian President Sali Berisha.

Yugoslav officials say the KLA's goal is to sever Kosovo from Yugoslavia and merge it with Albania. But Western strategists go further. They say an Islamic Kosovo could serve as a bridge for an Iranian sphere of influence that would soon join Albania in the east to Bosnia in the west. They say Macedonia, which also contains a significant Muslim population, would soon succumb to Iranian control.

The argument is echoed by KLA representatives themselves in their arguments for Muslim support. At the Islamabad conference, a KLA envoy, according to a report by the London-based monthly Filistin al-Muslimah, "explained the geographical and strategic importance of Kosovo in the connection between the Islamic centers of Bosnia, Kosovo, Albania and Macedonia."

Alex, the topic was Al Qaeda in Kosovo, not "Bosnia" or "the Balkans". Some posters referred to Al Qaeda currently in Kosovo. I stated that there has been no evidence or indicators of Al Qaeda involvement in Kosovo over the past five and one-half years; i.e. since the end of the bombing and NATO/US arrival in June 99. Nobody, including you, on this thread or the other thread I linked to has been able to point to any reason to believe Al Qaeda is operating in Kosovo. No Al Qaeda bodies, no prisoners, no documents, no videos, no attacks against Americans, and so on as listed on my previous post.

the KLA contains 1,000 mercenaries from Albania, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Bosnia, Croatia and Yemen. KLA training camps are in four Albanian cities under the influence of former Albanian President Sali Berisha.

Alex, let's say the 1,000 is correct. How many of that 1,000 came from Albania proper and how many more from the Albanian diaspora? In the Atlantic Brigade alone, there were several hundred Americans of Albanian descent who fought as KLA.

As for the Saudis & Yemenis, etc. here's what I said in the earlier post:

"While some mujahadeen travelled to Kosovo to participate in the 98-99 war, they were a very minor part of the force structure and had no role in the KLA leadership. When bin Laden sent his personal emissary, Claud al Kader in 1998 with money & weapons, the KLA sent him away and wouldn't accept either the money or the weapons. Al Kader is now in jail in Albania. "

And here's what you said:

"The KLA was instructed to force them out if they wanted US support, but any rational person can determine that not all of the arab fighters left Kosovo during the conflict"

I think we are more in agreement than otherwise.

Lack of evidence does not mean that something clandestine does not exist.

DTA, I appreciate your honesty in agreeing that there is a "lack of evidence" for Al Qaeda in Kosovo.

And I enjoy the way you crafted your words so that a rebuttal would have to "prove a negative." However, the impossibility of proving a negative does not prove the positive. The positive assertion of this argument is that Al Qaeda is operating in Kosovo. The person(s) who introduces an assertion carry the burden of providing the facts to prove it.

Alex, I think you'd really enjoy this book--it covers the topic we're on, it discusses the Albanian diaspora of which you are part, and it is simply a good & entertaning read.

In one part of the book, the KLA rejection of bin Laden along with the weapons & money he offered is covered from the viewpoint of an American KLA fund-raiser. At the time he was appalled. He thought they should have taken whatever assistance they could get, but by the end of the book is acknowledging the wisdom of not getting mixed up with al Qaeda.

So, sure, there had to be some links or bin Laden's offer and the mujahadeen we discussed could never have got there. But again, Al Qaeda had no significant role in the war and even less since then. If bin Laden & Al Qaeda never existed, the Kosovo War would have happened just like it did. The Serb-Albanian problems pre-date bin Laden & Al Qaeda by a long, long time.

Mark, you misunderstand me. I know the Kosovo conflict inside and out. KLA-islamic links are not even a priority in my debate against Kosovo independence. My main issue is American Foreign Policy abroad. You cannot say "ok kosovo, have independence after an armed struggle, but not you Kurdistan or you Taiwan, or you Chechnya".

It would be disasterous for US policy and risk US troops in those areas in the long run. If Kosovo can get independence thru the UN, EU...fine, great for Kosovo. Albania better not play a role in that or the US.

You cannot say "ok kosovo, have independence after an armed struggle, but not you Kurdistan or you Taiwan, or you Chechnya".

Agreed, you've made that point well. And I think it applies even more so in the Balkans itself--Republika Srpska, Vojvodina, Montenegro, maybe even western Macedonia could all point at an independent Kosovo and ask "Why not us?"

On the current glidepath, final status talks in Kosovo will begin in 2005. I'm guessing Kosovo will have the title "Republic" somewhere in its name and that it'll be in some type of federation that includes the name "Serbia".

A recent proposal that seemed to have merit was to put the EU in charge of final status negotiations and overseeing their implementation. For economic reasons, both Serbs and Kosovars want into the EU, so a negotiations honcho from that organization would have some leverage to force agreement.

No offense, but I don't buy the KLA turning down any possible support. If I were in the KLA, I'd take the money and weapons and basically screw the AQ. Thanks for the goodies, al-Kader, now get lost. Devil's Advocate...how do we know, just for the sake of argument, that the KLA really didn't accept the weapons and money but lie about it to everyone else. Maybe they lied to ALbanian-American sympathisers like the fundraiser mentioned because they didn't know what their reaction would be or that it might slip out. Also, the sympathizer in question came to believe after a while that the AQ were indeed bad guys who couldn't be trusted.

Jacob, as Alex Marko alluded in his post above: The KLA was instructed to force them [al Qaeda types] out ...

It was the USA that did the instructing. We'd learned our lesson a few years prior when the Bosniaks had turned to Islamist outsiders for help when they were outgunned by the Serbs and nobody else would give them assistance. This time we got the word to the KLA leadership that allowing Al Qaeda in would put the KLA on the terror list and ensure no help, diplomatic or otherwise, from the USA. And that threat appears to have worked. As to who delivered the message, maybe this guy?

Giles Pace

Pace turned up at the Rome airport and boarded gunrunner Florin Krasniqi’s flight to Albania. He offered his services to the KLA, helping the guerrillas devise gun-running schemes and improvise anti-tank weapons. Florin and others in the region say Pace was working for U.S. intelligence, though that could not be confirmed. Pace disappeared as mysteriously as he appeared when NATO began its bombing campaign in March 1999. His whereabouts remain unknown.

Discussions like this from people all over the world about a very recent real time/current event and with completely different outlooks and opinions is an incredilble thing to watch. Many times I just jump on one like this and read, and reread the comments just ot educate myself on the topic because of my ignorance of it.

Free Republic and the Internet in general has got to effect world governments strategies and concerns about many things.

KOSOVAR SERB LEADER SAYS APPARENT BOMB BLAST WAS POLITICAL

Moderate Kosovar Serb leader Oliver Ivanovic told RFE/RL's South Slavic and Albanian Languages Service from Mitrovica on 9 February that the explosion under his car the previous night was "clearly politically motivated." (see "RFE/RL Newsline," 9 February 2005) Ivanovic's Serbian List for Kosovo took part in the 23 October 2004 parliamentary elections despite calls from Belgrade for a boycott. Police are continuing to investigate the incident.

As I said, how do we know that the KLA didn't lie about not taking weapons and/or money from AQ? DO we have any definitive, concrete proof? And if it's true and the KLA didn't accept the "gift" from AQ, how do we know that some *faction* or element didn't take AQ up on it's offer even though the majority didn't? Besides, if the KLA turned down AQ's offer, they no doubt did it for self-serving reasons...they thought that at the present moment, an de-facto alliance with the US or elements of it anyway would suit their current interests more than not. Also, if Pace was with Intelligence, was he officially sent by the CIA or by one of their factions? Namely a faction which favored taking a very hard-line approach to Serbia.

As I said, how do we know that the KLA didn't lie about not taking weapons and/or money from AQ? DO we have any definitive, concrete proof?

Well, I was similarly asked to "prove a negative" earlier in this thread and I'll answer the same way. The impossibility of proving a negative does not prove the positive; which in your argument is that the KLA accepted support from Al Qaeda and then lied about it. Normally the positive assertion carries with it the burden of proof.

Besides, if the KLA turned down AQ's offer, they no doubt did it for self-serving reasons

But Jacob, isn't that the way of life? The KLA goal was the independence of Kosovo from Serbia. If you're a KLA honcho and had to make a decision, who'd you rather have on your side in that fight, the USA or Al Qaeda? I suspect they didn't have to discuss that one for very long.

On Pace, he showed up unannounced, facilitated the arms traffic with the KLA, and then disappeared. I don't know of anything that says what organization, if any, with which he was affiliated.

Anyways, the book shown a few posts above says that the way the USA delivered the message to the KLA to freeze out Al Qaeda was thru the Albanian government, which had contacts with the KLA leadership. I put Pace in the post because his mysterious appearance and gun-running role is so interesting, but there's nothing to indicate he was a communications conduit to the KLA.

"Well, I was similarly asked to "prove a negative" earlier in this thread and I'll answer the same way. The impossibility of proving a negative does not prove the positive; which in your argument is that the KLA accepted support from Al Qaeda and then lied about it. Normally the positive assertion carries with it the burden of proof."

In other words, just because you may not be able to prove that the KLA refused to accept AQ's offer of help doesn't necessarily mean that the KLA accepted the aid from bin Laden. Basically, it's hard to prove or disprove whether the KLA took aid from bin Laden, am I right? We might well never know for 100% sure, I'd wager.

"On Pace, he showed up unannounced, facilitated the arms traffic with the KLA, and then disappeared. I don't know of anything that says what organization, if any, with which he was affiliated."

So he may have been from Intellegence, but then again he may not have. He could have been CIA, DIA, or a member of a private organization. Hell, he could well have been an independent, private citizen who knew quite a bit for all we know. Do we know he was indeed an AMerican? For all we know, the guy could very well have been with the Tal Shiar or the Obsidian Order. :-)

Mark sorry for late reply.
Just for your information, Slavisa Petkovic spent 3 years in prison for extortion. His serving time ended in 99, and he was known as a bomb thrower on restaurants, clubs, and any other property of rich people.
I am personally not happy that he is in Kosovo government, because I don't like to be represented by a convicted criminal. He is not liked in Belgrade and by Kosovo Serbs, and for him (Slavisa) being a minister in a Government seems to work pretty well, having in mind his criminal history. He has now a budget of 13 mil. Euros, for the return of internally displaced people, and he doesn't care about Belgrade.
Therefore, I think you have a clear picture now and maybe can understand why it makes me sick anything he says. He became a minister with around 900 votes. I guess UNMIK is desperate when they allowed a criminal to become a part of a government.
Local gossip is that he cut the deal with Haradinaj. Crime knows no nation.

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