Islam, Orthodoxy, and Protestants

Bridegroom Press ^ | Steve Kellmeyer

[don-o]

bump for later

[mvpel]

Here's the article to which this one refers: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/1324728/posts

[xzins]

The pope is not the head of Christianity. He's the head of the Catholic Church.

No matter how much sophistry one dumps on this fact, it always remains true that the pope is not the head of Christianity.

[massgopguy]

Well he was until Henry VIII need some wiggle room.

[Cicero]

“God’s love is not like my father’s love. God is not a family of persons. Human families have nothing in common with God. The relationship between God and man is the relationship between master and slave. He loves us as a master loves his slave, cares for us as a master cares for his slave, we owe him obedience as a slave owes his master, not as a son owes his father.” This is the reply of the Muslim to that particular Christian evangelistic approach.

This certainly is an essential difference between Islam and Christianity. Muslims don't understand love as we understand it, and they don't understand freedom as we understand it.

As it happens, love and freedom are interconnected. In Milton's "Paradise Lost," the Archangel Raphael explains to Adam, "Freely we serve, / because we freely love, as in our will / To love or not." Milton drew that insight, probably, from St. Augustine's "Enchiridion." Milton explains that God gives man freedom because He wants to be freely loved, not served by servile slaves or puppets.

But I'm not sure that I follow this author's "solution" to the problem of converting Muslims. The solution is not to show how Orthodoxy and Islam are similar, or for that matter how Luther's concept of a Deus absconditus resembles the Muslim idea of a God who is wholly different from anything we understand about love and goodness.

A better way is to try to show Arabs the meaning of love and freedom. Bush seems to be making a start on it. Regretably, Hollywood seems no longer to understand such concepts as love, freedom, courage, or any of the other Christian virtues, nor do any of the socialist politicians of Europe, and that is no help in speaking to the Muslim world.

Hillaire Belloc thought that the key was to talk to Muslims about the Virgin Mary and her loving relationship with her Son. It was noticeable that Mel Gibson's "Passion of the Christ" was well received in the Muslim world, according to disappointed media reports.

One solution to the problem, doubtless, is to resist violence and kill terrorists. But we also need to fight Islam with ideas, and ultimately with the ideas of freedom and love.

[xzins]

not even then....orthodoxy far pre-dated Henry.

You also forget that Henry was succeeded by his daughter Mary who brought England back under Catholicism.

It was actually Elizabeth I of England who initiated the final breakaway from Rome.

[skellmeyer]

The pope is not the head of Christianity. He's the head of the Catholic Church. No matter how much sophistry one dumps on this fact, it always remains true that the pope is not the head of Christianity.

Oh, Katie Couric, Peter Jennings and the rest would be right there with you, dude! "George W. Bush is not my President. I didn't vote for him. He doesn't speak to my needs. We need to discuss secession possibilities for the blue states." The Red-State, Blue-State thing is just the political version of a play we saw five hundred years ago. :)

[k2blader]

The Pope is neither the head of Christianity nor the head of the Church.

[USMCVet]

bump for later...

[independentmind]

As it happens, love and freedom are interconnected. In Milton's "Paradise Lost," the Archangel Raphael explains to Adam, "Freely we serve, / because we freely love, as in our will / To love or not." Milton drew that insight, probably, from St. Augustine's "Enchiridion." Milton explains that God gives man freedom because He wants to be freely loved, not served by servile slaves or puppets.

Great post, Cicero.

I wonder how many posters here agree with you.

[kalee]

Interesting. Thanks for posting. I want to save this to reread when I have more time to respond.

[xzins]

You don't understand, my man (woman?).

The pope isn't the head of Christianity. There IS Christianity out there that he is not head of. Therefore, he is not the head of Christianity.

There is no piece of America out there that Bush is not the President of. He's the president of all of it.

Your analogy doesn't hold.

[skellmeyer]

A better way is to try to show Arabs the meaning of love and freedom. Bush seems to be making a start on it...Hillaire Belloc thought that the key was to talk to Muslims about the Virgin Mary and her loving relationship with her Son. It was noticeable that Mel Gibson's "Passion of the Christ" was well received in the Muslim world, according to disappointed media reports.

Well, Belloc was just emphasizing one connection between Christianity and Islam: Mary. I'm just generalizing his principle. Why use just one aspect when we should use every one we have available? Shock and awe, my friend, shock and awe.

BTW, one of the reasons Gibson's "Passion" was well-received in the Muslim world was Moslems concentrated on the negative portrayal of the Sanhedrin (which, for the record, was not anti-Semitic, but which could be conflated that way if you were already pre-disposed). For the most part, Muslims still don't believe Jesus died on the Cross.

[Elsie]

I guess I'll have to post the straight skinny...

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1 Corinthians 11:3
   Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

 

Ephesians 1:9-10
 9.  And he  made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ,
 10.  to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment--to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.

 

Ephesians 1:22-23
 22.  And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church,
 23.  which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.

 

Ephesians 4:11-16
 11.  It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers,
 12.  to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up
 13.  until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
 14.  Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming.
 15.  Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ.
 16.  From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.

 

Ephesians 5:23
   For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.

 

Colossians 1:17-18
 17.  He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
 18.  And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.

 

Colossians 2:8-10
 8.  See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.
 9.  For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,
 10.  and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority.

 

Colossians 2:18-19
 18.  Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions.
 19.  He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.

[Fiddlstix]

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[Cicero]

Actually, it's a fascinating article. He states the basic problem of evangelizing Muslims well, although I believe his suggested solution is wrong. The problem with Muslims is that they are fixated on slavery. Ideally, a Muslim Sultan wants his loyal followers to prostrate themselves before him like slaves, and accept any of his arbitrary decisions like slaves. Ideally, a Christian king wants to be honored as a loving father, and obeyed because he is loved. Bowing to a king may look bad to us free Americans, but nonetheless it's very different from prostrating yourself to a Sultan. We have to break that Muslim mindset that prefers tyranny and slavish obedience to love.

Too bad he started with that remark about the Pope, because frankly it is a red herring that has no discernible bearing on his main argument. Is the Pope the head of Christianity or is he not? Who cares? What does that have to do with the effort of converting Muslims? Sure, it's an important question we could all argue about at some other time, but it really distracts from the main point he is trying to make. Catholics and Protestants can agree that we need to convert Muslims to a better way of thinking, since it would be difficult to kill all of them.

[A.J.Armitage]

Is George Bush President of the Philippines?

Is Elizabeth II Queen of America?

[skellmeyer]

The pope isn't the head of Christianity. There IS Christianity out there that he is not head of. Therefore, he is not the head of Christianity. There is no piece of America out there that Bush is not the President of. He's the president of all of it. Your analogy doesn't hold.

Sure it holds. The President has control over a certain geographical territory and people born in that territory. Now, some people recognize his authority over that territory and those people, others don't. Some people obey laws that he brings into existence concerning that territory and those people, others don't. Some people think he's a legitimate president, others don't. But personal opinion, the ability to be caught and brought before a judge, the willingness to prosecute people who are treasonous towards the President, these things don't change the facts. Bush is President.

Just change the word Pope for President and you've got nearly the same thing, except the Pope has authority over all the baptized. Whether the baptized choose to recognize that, whether anyone requires them to make that recognition - none of that is relevant to the facts.

[RussianBoor]

Well, that is an interesting piece, but the author of the original contribution does not know much about Christianity. Sadly. In fact, the shared experience of love is indeed compelling, but only among Christians. We all share this because the main thing that makes Christianity so unique is that the God decided to help us to save our souls. And in doing so, He did not teach us or direct us or issue orders. He did not demand that we obey Him. He sent His sun to die for us. He turned into one of us and experienced all horrors that we were incurring on our fellow human beings. He was not our master and we were not His slaves. We were in the same boat. He was just stronger than us and wiser than us, so He sacrificed himself to help us. There is nothing like that in any other religion. And it does not matter can we understand Him or not. I also think that we cannot. This is in fact a Jewish tradition, that the God cannot be understood, that He is indescribable and inaccessible. This Jewish tradition has been transferred into both Islam and Christianity, especially the Eastern Christianity. However, in Christianity the God used his omnipotence to save us. In Islam He started to rule us. That is the difference. The Master-Slave relationship.

I am not very familiar with Buddhism, but I think the distinction stands. Their God is not a Master but neither is He a Saviour. He loves you, yes, but He does not really care for you. He is far-far away from you. That's also a difference.

And what is also completely untrue is that Orthodox Christianity provided Islam with a kind of vaccine because allegedly the Orthodox Christianity supports in some way the Master-Slave relationship. This is very wrong. In fact, one of the main theological issues and one of the reason of numerous schisms and heresies, like Arianism, was the inequality among the Holy Trinity. Arians claimed that Christ was not God or at least not equal to God the Father. This is very important since if Christ is not equal to God the Farther then we have again the Master, who did care for us but who ordered his sun do go and die and thus put Himself above His sun and us. This is a heresy in Orthodox Christianity like in Catholicism and Protestancy, and for a very good reason since it destroys the basis of our faith. However, Arianism is still very popular in the East, but it should not be confused with Orthodox Christianity.