CONTROL OF THE FUTURE THROUGH CONTROL OF THE SCHOOLS

American Life League ^ | American Life League

[Smartaleck]

"Thanks to the T.V. and the radio my children already know.
Except there is one difference; my church and I told them what to do."

Thank you for your obviously thoughtful and complete response.

My kids have had a similar experience and when it comes to matters of a moral nature I believe it should begin at home. It's too bad that many parents, apparently, either can't or won't address such issues. It is for this reason that the schools and other institutions felt it necessary to explain homosexuality, and other topics that are of a "personal" or moral nature.

Is it right for them to do that? Well, if their job is to educate or impart knowledge and information, then, yes they need to do that. The difficulty arises when different people disagree on just what that information should be, how much and at what age.....the teaching of biology and reproduction for example.

The matter becomes even more controversial when the educators don't stop at merely imparting information, but they feel they must also apply their values and opinions on the subject matter. Doesn't matter if it's sex education, history, politics, the environment etc.

The matter is further complicated by different people having different notions about what is "age appropriate" and the attending content. We elect people to make those decisions an hopefully they do so in an informed way. Too bad there is no best way or time for any given child. It is for this reason, or because something might be at odds with a parent's belief system, that schools must give the parents the option to opt their kids out of such instruction.

In some respects it's like deciding at what age a kid should have a drivers license? For some kids 16 is fine, they are mature enough to handle the responsibility. For others, well, they may never be responsible no matter how old they are. Either way, if the "set age" proves to be inappropriate the community needs to work to change it.

As you rightly point out, TV, and other parts of society I would add, too often expose our children to matters that they shouldn't be exposed too, at least not before they have developed or reached some age of maturity when they can better understand the subject and process it an informed manner.

All that being said, yes there are educators, the NEA, administrators, elected officials and others, who do wish to foist their agenda and values on society and it's wrong. Are all teachers a part of that agenda? No they aren't nor are the laws regarding education in each state the same which is why I take exception to the notion posited in this thread that all schools are out of control or all teachers are incompetent.

It's not just the education system either. Businesses, gov't etc. now all have harassment policies and mostly for liability purposes have to expend a great deal of money "educating" employees. While there is some merit in explaining why it's wrong to harass women for example, too often the subject goes way beyond original intent and tries to impart someone else's value system on employees. At the same time there are people who don't hesitate to exploit the policy. For example a woman who claims she was harassed because some guy said her hair looked nice as opposed to you don't get a promotion unless you do something immoral. The litigious society that we are, the sometimes goofy courts and sometimes goofy juries give legitimacy to the most trivial of charges and the whole process of evaluating what must be done to prevent lawsuits starts all over again.

Schools get caught up in the same types of litigation. Teachers spend an inordinate amount of time, in my opinion, worrying about who is going to sue them. Some complaints are valid, but many aren't. I suggest that if teachers don't spend enough time teaching the three r's, in large part is the parents fault, not the teachers and not the system they have to work in. Parents are largely responsible for the problem and parents are largely responsible for fixing it.

It's like the dumbing down of America. Who caused it? The people buying the education. The system is offering up what the consumer has asked for....everybody's kid should get A's. LOL

On this last point, when Bush was gov. he tried to push the decision making down to the local level and encourage teachers to take the initiative to provide a quality product. He further changed the state's testing system to one that was "more difficult" but, in theory anyway, was a measure of what kids learned in school. (The opposite of dumbing down, a smartening up if you will.) Of course the first scores to come in were relatively poor in many cases because kids had been educated under a system that expected less. Gore and others didn't hesitate to jump on these scores and point them out as an indication of how poor the TX education system was when in fact the exact opposite was true!

Point is, changes aren't easy. It takes a strong leader to make changes, to take bold steps and they need the support of the community if they are to succeed. A community that participates can help make the changes needed, whether they themselves have kids in school or not....no different from any other political process. If people don't vote, participate, they vote by their inaction and they may not like the outcome.

That's my opinion and I would welcome any teacher who might have a more informed one to comment.

[Smartaleck]

"I have "bashed" government schools as unAmerican and having their purpose and results of destroying America. I have not bashed teachers."

Yeah like Kennedy bashes the military but supports the troops. The teachers are the schools just as the troops are the military. It's an inclusive thing don't cha know? The whole is the sum of its parts.

As to the e-mail message, please do include it if you think it advances the discussion. Frankly I don't think your personal flames and my responses need to be a part of it unless you want the thread to turn into a flame war? It serves no useful pupose and in some cases causes a thread to be pulled. Is that what you want?

Your patriotic appeal was cute. You might want think about how to improve those institutions that have been here for 200 years and produced some of the greatest minds the world has ever seen and served to make this such a great place to live.

[scripter]

Even though the homosexual agenda is doing all it can to get the attention of our children via covert messages and television programs, they're still innocent because we keep a tight reign on what they see and hear.

Our kids watch less than an hour of television each month. Last year I decided to let them watch an old black and white Tom and Jerry cartoon, thinking it was harmless. Well, it was, but the commercials weren't. I just so happened to walk past the television during a commercial and caught a reference to homosexuality. The homosexual agenda never sleeps.

Our kids harbor no resentment towards anyone, and if they see somebody having a bad day, they ask if they could pray for them. They're incredible kids. We fill them in on the issues as necessary and because we do what we can to protect their minds, they will not be indoctrinated from influential groups with complex social agenda aimed at their lives. For the most part, they are still very innocent.

[cinives]

Well, that's a pretty pathetic answer - you are doing lots of complaining right here!

You need a history lesson. We aren't talking separation - we're talking choice. We're talking about parents being able to afford the choice to send their kids wherever thay want to school. Would you rather pay for 12 years of your kids' schooling, or 60 years of everybody's schooling, in the form of taxes ? As a card-carrying member of a capitalist society, I prefer the former. All socialists/democrats prefer the latter.

You think the schools are not segregated now ? Get real, look at any public school around you. Schools draw their students from the local area. In my case, that's about 90% white, 2% hispanic, 4% asian, and 4% black. In Philadelphia ? About 80% black, 10% asian, and 10% hispanic. People are segregated by where they live.

So what's your argument ? It's already here, or do you want to go back to forced bussing ?

Are you a member of FR ? You think profit is bad ? You think public school administrators making 150k - 250K a year are not "making a profit" ? You need some economics lessons on the antics of non-profits. When profit is not permitted, excess money otherwise known in the free market as profits get paid out as salary and benefits.

[Oberon]

not yet far enough to interfere with Dubya's re-election...or Reagan's for that matter.

Ask yourself this...did Harry Truman ever have to face the thorny policy question of what to do about gays in the military? Had the ACLU in 1949 adopted the position that a pre-game prayer on the sidelines of a high school football field constitutes an illegal establishment of religion by the state? Were the Democrats of FDR's era screened for leadership positions on the basis of their endorsement of abortion on demand?

You're right, we did elect Reagan and Bush II, two stand-out presidents that pass today for conservatives...but if you could transplant them to 1950, they would be moderates at best.

That's what I mean about the culture moving to the left. It's happened so gradually, people consider it normal.

[Osage Orange]

I think we can archive all these articles without putting them in the pubic domain and violating copyright laws.

I wouldn't be putting nuttin' in anyone's "pubic domain" buddy..!!

LOL!!!

[Smartaleck]

"The tax which will be paid for [the] purpose [of education] is
not more than the thousandth part of what will be paid to kings,
priests and nobles who will rise up among us if we leave the
people in ignorance." --Thomas Jefferson to George Wythe, 1786.

"No other sure foundation can be devised for the preservation of
freedom and happiness... Preach a crusade against ignorance;
establish and improve the law for educating the common people.
Let our countrymen know that the people alone can protect us
against the evils [of misgovernment]." --Thomas Jefferson to
George Wythe, 1786.


"I know no safe depositary of the ultimate powers of the society
but the people themselves; and if we think them not enlightened
enough to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion, the
remedy is not to take it from them, but to inform their discretion
by education. This is the true corrective of abuses of
constitutional power." --Thomas Jefferson to William C. Jarvis,
1820.

"Every government degenerates when trusted to the rulers of the
people alone. The people themselves, therefore, are its only safe
depositories. And to render even them safe, their minds must be
improved to a certain degree." --Thomas Jefferson: Notes on
Virginia, 1782.



http://etext.virginia.edu/etcbin/ot2www-jeffquot?specfile=%2Fweb%2Fdata%2Fjefferson%2Fquotations%2Fwww%2Fjeffquot.o2w&query=public+education&docs=html&sample=1-100&grouping=match

[Smartaleck]

"You need a history lesson. We aren't talking separation"

#319 "I believe that the separation of school and state is at least as important as the separation of church and state"
Iwo Jima

Perhaps you should correct that to read some aren't?

[Dixielander]

ping

[moog]

Posted by cinives to moog On News/Activism 02/09/2005 6:01:31 AM PST · 324 of 326 Boy are you one angry son of a gun:) Okay, I'll address your whinings.

Well, that's a pretty pathetic answer - you are doing lots of complaining right here!

Yes, I knew you wouldn't understand my point. I do lots of defending against complaints and using teachers as scapegoats for all the ills of society. I know I'm not a bad person. I work many hours, just like many people do, at my job. Yet, some people here seem to think that teachers are lower than low. Blaming others is a liberal tactic. Look at the how some blame President Bush for all of the ills of society. And if they start blaming the troops--they have a bone to pick with me. That being said, I do tend to be sarcastic at times. Sorry.

You need a history lesson. We aren't talking separation - we're talking choice. We're talking about parents being able to afford the choice to send their kids wherever thay want to school. Would you rather pay for 12 years of your kids' schooling, or 60 years of everybody's schooling, in the form of taxes ? As a card-carrying member of a capitalist society, I prefer the former. All socialists/democrats prefer the latter.

Choice is an issue with the pro-abortionists too. They want someone to pay for their personal choice. Yes, we all have to get our way, like I said. You proved my point. Let's see...I would have to pay for everyone's schooling. While we're at it, I guess let's have our choice. I will pay only for my brother in the air force, not everyone else. I will only pay for how many times I use the highway each year, not everyone else--I need my choice. I will only pay federal taxes for projects in my own state, not anyone else's. I will only pay taxes for the 1 time I go to the zoo each year, not for everything else... We're talking welfare here, with a capital W.

You think the schools are not segregated now ? Get real, look at any public school around you. Schools draw their students from the local area. In my case, that's about 90% white, 2% hispanic, 4% asian, and 4% black. In Philadelphia ? About 80% black, 10% asian, and 10% hispanic. People are segregated by where they live.

My area is of a similar makeup. But it does seem to me (at least in my area and state) that we are seeing a "let's get away from those bad people thing." I could go on and on about this, but won't. I know where you'll go with this one, so I won't respond to it.

So what's your argument ? It's already here, or do you want to go back to forced bussing ?

Actually, we had forced bussing in my town. Nobody really gave it a second thought then. But no, nothing I say really has to do with that.

Are you a member of FR ? You think profit is bad ? You think public school administrators making 150k - 250K a year are not "making a profit" ? You need some economics lessons on the antics of non-profits. When profit is not permitted, excess money otherwise known in the free market as profits get paid out as salary and benefits. Yes, I am a profit...oops wrong spelling. Yes, I am a member of FR. I am a liberal teacher though that is pro-military, anti-abortion, active Christian, anti-gay agenda, pro-gun, etc. Yes, I know, I guess I will have to quit being so liberal.

Yes, I do think most public school administrators making that much is probably not good. They certainly don't make that much where I live. However, I don't think using CHILDREN for profit is. While I am pro-business too and think that we should be thankful to them for giving us jobs, I do worry sometimes about some of the ethics, especially in local terms of a couple of things that happened to my wife last year. HOWEVER, I don't use that as a catalyst to bad-mouth or find negativity with everything about business. I know that there are many good honest managers and workers out there too. I sure hope and pray we do not apply your ideas to the military. Actually, I cringe even losing a carrier in the budget. I sure do appreciate those guys and what they do for us.

My main point is that I see many miracles and things occur where I am at. It may be different for you, I guess I can't comment on that. But I don't blame others for all the problems in society either or apply it to everyone--the liberals do that enough already. I've got too much of a two-by-four in my own eye to do that.

I congratulate you for being a good parent. Like most teachers, I feel that we need more of them (I am thankful to be blessed with the parents of my students though). I am thankful that I had a good father and mother who raised me with good values. Yes, I have had to learn not to complain too much. I look at my student who died two years ago of brain cancer. He didn't complain at all. He was my greatest teacher. No doubt, you will think of this as hokey too and will probably rail about it as you did everything else precious to me, but he WAS very special to me. I think for me, more than anything, it comes down to appreciation for what those guys in Iraq and Afghanistan and around the world are doing for us--to give up time with your family and all the other sacrifices. And guess what, at least some of them were publicly educated.

[Smartaleck]

Shedding light in dark places

It is distressing to have great intellectual and moral concerns reduced to the cartoonish, both in the form of animated film and the posturing of some who wish to fight the culture wars at this level.
Most who accept the label "conservative Christian," or its synonyms, spend too much time throwing stones at the cultural citadels and too little acquiring and developing the skills and knowledge to compete in the ideological and cultural arena.

It has not always been so. Historically, Christians dominated the professions, not solely by force of law, but by the power of their ideas and example.

The rest of the article by Cal Thomas is here. It's about winning in the cultural arena.
http://www.washtimes.com/commentary/20050208-083631-7886r.htm

Posted on FR today here
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1339252/posts

[moog]

"You need a history lesson. We aren't talking separation"

#319 "I believe that the separation of school and state is at least as important as the separation of church and state"
Iwo Jima

Perhaps you should correct that to read some aren't?

Remember, it was not me (moog) that wrote the grammar correction. I've done enough of that for now:).

[Smartaleck]

"One of twenty five incidents since last summer."

Any stats on homeschoolers?

[cinives]

Actually, I'm not angry - annoyed, perhaps. I don't complain about teachers in general - just in the particular :)

I would have to pay for everyone's schooling. While we're at it, I guess let's have our choice. I will pay only for my brother in the air force, not everyone else. I will only pay for how many times I use the highway each year, not everyone else--I need my choice. I will only pay federal taxes for projects in my own state, not anyone else's. I will only pay taxes for the 1 time I go to the zoo each year, not for everything else... We're talking welfare here, with a capital W.

I don't understand your point here. Yes, I think people should pay for their own. We did that in this country until about 1852. Same for roads. In fact even today in Texas a group is proposing a private highway to be paid for with tolls. The private sector is alive and well in all these areas. As for the military - no, defense, police, judiciary will always have to be paid for with taxes. I have no problem with that. I do have a problem with paying for other people. I'd rather pay for my expenses myself, as I'd rather you pay for yours yourself etc. We've spent trillions of dollars on the New Deal and Great Society, and the poor are still with us. Welfare is an incentive to use more of it - so we'll never be without the poor.

Yes, I know, I guess I will have to quit being so liberal.

I've met few teachers who aren't liberal. No offense intended, just an observation.

However, I don't think using CHILDREN for profit is.

This I think is where your liberal views lead you logically astray. We all make money (create value, even if non-monitarily) off interactons with each other. Doctors of all kinds make money off kids. So do drugstores, social workers (their paychecks), teachers of all types, babysitters, car companies (kids ride in cars, and buy cars when they turn 16) and on and on and on. What is the problem with that ? If you provide someone a good or a service, someone is making money whether as a direct payment or in a paycheck. As long as it's a voluntary transaction there should be no objection. Where I object is when you have no choice - such as, having to pay for 12 years of public teaching service if I don't want it. I'd have the same reaction if I had to pay for 12 years of medical services whether I wanted it or not - in this I have a choice, I can choose to be without medical insurance if I wish.

The idea of not profiting from children is just a gut reaction to the perceived non-voluntary nature of the transaction - really thinking this thru shows the fallacy of this argument. As long as the child receives a value - a good or service - there can be no problem.

I don't make fun of your story - I've met kids who were very brave in less-than-ideal circumstances not of their own making. What counts is that we all try to do the best we can and most importantly, be responsible for lessening the mess we see around us.

[Smartaleck]

"Notice the person (smart-alecky) who was game playing with
us claimed to be a teacher."

Please direct me to that post so that I might correct it. What you'll find though, you're mistaken.....it happens. People get confused.

Regarding http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1337648/posts?page=260#260

Still waiting for an answer. It's ok if you have to admit a little faux pas. It happens.

[Smartaleck]

Scripter writes "Before that, and with what's going on in the schools today, no way, I won't subject my kids to that. Imagine this happening to your kid: Boy sexually assaulted by six-year-old classmate in school bathroom"

Yet

"Approximately 90 percent of child sexual abuse victims know their abusers, according to the National Center for Post Traumatic Stress Disorder — about 30 percent of those who sexually abuse children are relatives of the child and about 60 percent of perpetrators are unrelated acquaintances, including family friends, babysitters or neighbors."

http://www.childrenshospitals.net/Template.cfm?Section=Home&CONTENTID=11030&TEMPLATE=/ContentManagement/ContentDisplay.cfm

Are we to blieve that homeschoolers are somehow excepted from the statistics that show it's more likely someone in their family or non- related aquaintances will perform such acts?

[Smartaleck]

Stalin's useful idiots tag team
TROLLS
Why get into a pissing contest with a bunch of skunks.
...this clown.
Communists
dense
"Public school "teachers" are not qualified to teach children whose IQ is above average. Whether they are qualified to teach their mentally retarded equals is questionable at best."
your wickedness.
You're a piece of work.

Fine examples of good Chritian/Moral behavior? LOL

[scripter]

What you'll find though, you're mistaken.....it happens. People get confused....Still waiting for an answer. It's ok if you have to admit a little faux pas. It happens...

Please provide the post number where I said you claimed to be a teacher. It's okay if you have to admit a little faux pas. It happens

[scripter]

You have dodged clarifying your position when asked, you've back pedaled, used misdirection and called me a homosexual. All of this has been documented. You are a piece of work, and the title of clown fits you well.

Have you scraped that egg off your face yet, as it seems you're still having trouble removing your foot from your mouth.

[scripter]

Sorry, moog, I meant to include an additional comment...

moog answered the question Smartaleck apparently refuses to answer.