Don't help, Border Patrol says

www.azstarnet.com/Online service of The Arizona Daily Star ^ | 1/30/05 | AZ Ranger's Wifey

[Logical me]

"Many of the Citizens here do not want the Minuteman Project, the Local Law Enforcement doesn't want them, the Border Patrol doesn't want them." This is crap. When the Government (our Government) does not protect us then it is the responsibility of the citizenry to do the job. As far as training, how long does it take to train. Does this mean citizens are so stupid they can't train themselves. What makes law enforcement the only training. All the training needed is a careful detaining, cut a hold in the fence if there is one, and shove them back. Hand them a piece of paper saying, try the proper border crossing next time. Maybe not said good here, but get the message. Either Government does the job or we will.

[Publius6961]

Don't help, Border Patrol says

Earth calling the Border Patrol...

As LEOs need to be reminded from time to time, in a sane world you are the help, not us!

Or, to put it as clearly as is humanly possible, we are the masters and you are the servants. If you disagree, please, do elaborate.

[Route101]

At least...enforce the borders to protect the ranchers who pay taxes on the land the illegals cross....

[Blowtorch]

It's about making a political statement as much as it is "helping" patrol the border. The political statement needs to be made. As far as assisting in border patrol, what is stated by this article may actually be the case.

[sevry]

before you stage an armed invasion

If the locals won't do anything, then prepare for invasion. This is a national problem. But I agree with the idea that they aren't properly equipped and trained. What's needed are teams of rangers, all good men, fully equipped and organized to protect the borders, with more choppers than the border patrol now use, with more effective means, and with an eye not to harming any but the 'coyotes' or gangsters behind these incursions.

[Pa' fuera]

It's about making a political statement as much as it is "helping" patrol the border. The political statement needs to be made.

just the rumor of these groups showing up is a deterrent, since these groups routinely make national news in Mexico, and there is always a paranoid tone to the reports that "vigilante groups are hunting immigrants" . It must be in the Mexican press' style books, but the word "hunting" is always used in reference to the vigilante groups' activities. In the absence of action, which we can't get from Washington, at least there is some propaganda generated from all this. And the Mexicans generate it, which is even better.

[Ben Ficklin]

Her husband murdered her.

Of course you saw long and multiple threads on it yesterday. I doubt that you and your crowd are interested in today's thread. I has been up for hours with just a few replies.

Does that tell you anything.

[Ben Ficklin]

It has been up for hours.

[Ben Ficklin]

Don't let them intimidate you. If they start chasing you around/stalking you on other threads, hit the abuse button because thread jumping is forbidden here.

[adam_az]

"It is my opinion that these folks should leave their guns at home. Please bring the wife and kids with you there is some wonderful history in this area. Please take the time to know us before you stage an armed invasion into our communities"

1) Open carry is the law in AZ.

2) Your town is already being invaded.

3) They'll be on public land and private land they have permission to traverse.

[AZ Rangers Wifey]

These are your opinions and you are entitled to them. If you will read the Minuteman Project's SOP (which I believe was written by a man local to this area who was caught carrying a firearm in a National Park (concealed without permit). You will see that many of them do intend to bring guns to our community. We are sufficiently armed (which is our right) to protect our homes. I will not apologize for my attempts to stop this group, they have affiliated themselves with a man who is on Probation in our area (a criminal) I spoke to a group of Border Patrol Agents this morning and heard characterizations of the Minutemen such as "lunatics that will only hinder the day to day operation." The intrusion of the Minutemen is going to obfuscate the border patrol's routine activities, and how many of them have a security clearance to work in a HOT ZONE? As a citizen, I am concerned more for our safety knowing there are armed radicals in the hills than I would worry about a few illegals (who seldom carry weapons).

Even if some "Minutemen" may be well intentioned others may have other motives for their arrival here. Someone said that there was trouble in TX, why not go there first? Why does it have to be my home? I will not stop trying to prevent and destroy the actions of the Minutemen in any peaceful way I can. This kind of vigilante mentality never solves anything our Border Patrol Agents could be more effective if a group of greenhorns did not come down here to ruin their surveillance. Let it be known now that the citizenry promise that there will be peaceful protests that coincide with the Minutemen's occupation and operations in our community. It will not be the hunt for human prey that many of them may be hoping for because we will not allow it. If we keep your mission from being a success, perhaps your next mission would be to write to your elected officials (which would do much more good than coming to my community with guns). If the Minutemen do come here in April, we will know to be more careful because a group of radicals are in our area possibly with guns, and who knows what movtives or past crimes? Do you think that we should be made miserable in our own homes because a group of people want to help someone who DOES NOT WANT THEIR HELP! I feel I have a right to defend my home with the firearms that are here, you each have the right to defend your own homes, but when you bring your guns to my home I think I have a certain right to have some concern for that. How do they screen the Minutemen members for possible criminals or terrorists? How do they know that their activities out in the desert will not only keep the Border Patrol busy tending to them instead of doing their jobs? The idea of that area out there spoiled by ruffians who are told to bring a shovel with them so they can bury their feces where many of us enjoy hiking is DISGUSTING!! How about a group of us folks from Cochise County come to your hometowns so we can defecate in public and just sprinkle a little sand on it. If you do that with dog waste in NY you could get a ticket, but it's okay for everyone to dig a shallow hole and crap in my County? How far do YOUR rights go before they are trampling on MY rights? I invited all who wish to come as visitors. If during your visit you would like to visit (and please respect the desert area), I would have no objection to that. If you were to work WITH the Border Patrol and their wishes, don't you feel that your presence would be something to be proud of? As it stands now, the only assumption we can make from your forcible occupation of our community (for purposes other than a casual sight seeing vacation) is that your intentions are those of CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE. That seems a lot like what the Liberals would do (take the Law into their own hands then try to get glory for themselves), I have gleaned this from my experiences as a Bush Campaign worker. In April the scorpions and rattlesnakes are especially prolific make sure to shake your jackboots out real well each day before you put them on. Beware of the tap water, to people who are not used to it, well let’s just say you may REALLY be digging a lot of holes for the first week or so. Ah yes, and let me not forget to mention the danger of looking "paramilitary" and going in to dine in some of the local restaurants. So come as a hindrance to our Federal Officials and you will not get a very warm reception. When the Border Patrol tells our group that they actually want or need your help then we will stand down. In the meantime, we see your actions as being counterproductive to the Border Security. It's 30 days for you. It's a lifetime home for us. Who has the most right to protest in this County? You are about to find out that you cannot just come down here and take over. We live here and we are not about to allow your group to befoul our home with your trash and crap holes and vigilantism.

[AZ Rangers Wifey]

You know what, if they were down here to help with funding and labor to build that fence with the blessings of the local Border Patrol and other Government agencies involved in this border, I do not think any of us would object to that! I like that idea, now that is the "can-do" American spirit but if they did that they could not run around acting like they are some hot shot in their cammos and Hummers and jeeps tearing up our desert. These people are just jokes to us, when they come, they trash the place up worse than the UDAs who will usually bury or carry their trash so as not to leave a trail. The people starting this Minuteman Project came from California with an "agenda" to "fix" our border problem (what about the border in their own state?) Build the fence, get funding for the fence but I do not see why we are forced to be "occupied" unless they are helping. I have several friends who are Federal Agents and "Minuteman" is a dirty word to them, they know what confusion and discord that a group like that can cause in an already very troubled region. When they ask for you help and you come, you are a hero. When they ask you to stay away for your safety and for their safety you are (in my eyes disregarding the best advice of people who work in this area). When you go in against the advice of the Federal Gov. then they may not be able to protect you. But it will be incumbent on them to try, so while they are trying to help a group of tourists that are in danger, how many UDAs are finding their way into the country while everyone's attention is centered on saving the man who was snake bit or injured?

[MeanWestTexan]

You are much closer to the situation.

Start spreading the idea of a privately-funded fence/barricade.

This is an idea that has legs.

[AZ Rangers Wifey]

The Mexicans are loading Automatic Weapons in response to the armed insurgence. They routinely shoot at Border Patrol agents from the Mexican side of the border, by the way legally Americans are NOT allowed to shoot back from OUR side of the border. The Mexicans are not afraid of a bunch of untrained (albeit well-intentioned) people. They are ready to murder all of you. Don't be surprised by anything that may happen in April, there are already posters up in the Naco bars announcing the arrival of the Minutemen in April. By March there will most likely be a bounty offered.

Our group will not be in uniforms.

[AZ Rangers Wifey]

Thank you for your advice Ben, I do appreciate it.
Wifey ;-)

[Final Authority]

Excellent point made on reply #22. Do not expect an answer though because the only correct answer would be a pro US Constitutional answer and that it seems is what the open borders folks are working to destroy, the Constitution and necessarily, the USA.

[Pa' fuera]

The Mexicans are loading Automatic Weapons in response to the armed insurgence.

I was speaking more of the average immigrant than the immigrant smugglers/drug traffickers. I agree with you that the latter group, made up of ruthless criminals, is not afraid of the Minutemen, although the Minutemen will be a nuisance to their operation. This might lead to the volunteers being targeted if they get in the way. If Cochise County doesn't want them, there is plenty of border to patrol elsewhere. They should come out here to east San Diego County.

[Pa' fuera]

UDAs

UDAs? you're sounding rather like an illegal sympathizer with that kind of language

they're illegal aliens

[AZ Rangers Wifey]

The Border Patrol uses the term "UDA" now for any person who does not have documentation who is apprehended in this country. It is "politically correct speak" that someone inflicted on the Federal and local Law Enforcement agencies recently and has only been used officially in the past year (that I know of), it means UnDocumented Aliens (who are by definition in the US without proper documentation), we have recently been able to deport UDAs without hearings, put them on a bus or plane and send them right back to Mexico. This has been very helpful for the economy of our area because our county has borne a great deal of expense in dealing with UDAs who are arrested in the surrounding cities like Sierra Vista (which is also a part of Cochise County). Do you all really believe that American citizens down here are just sitting on their hands?

We also want to have the Canadian border closed and policed. Some of you have been slightly abusive to me, and I live here. We have not even faced each other, yet I sense anger. I am only sharing these things that I know to be true, I can find links to some of the violence that our Border Agents and Police Departments have faced down here. I think the Agents we have do a fine job, they are very brave but there is not enough protection here. They patrol in the cities here too. Not every UDA is arrested in the desert.


People who live in the cities are told what types of activities are suspicious and the numbers to call to report trouble. They find them with our homeless, or hiding in abandoned buildings. The Border Agents work 24 hours a day 7 days a week there are always Agents on duty. The law abiding citizens in our county are glad to see the white & green trucks in our area. They are serving our country when they take 26 people out of the abandoned building in Sierra Vista in the middle of the night, and do you know how they found them? Citizen cooperation, the kind of help that they really need. Those that are not in what I consider a HOT ZONE (near a point of entry on the AZ/Mexican border), but they take their time to report a van or pick up truck jammed full of people as full as they can be crammed. We also spend our time writing to our elected officials with the horrors that our Border Agents face on a regular basis.

We have encouraged people on the Mexican side of the border not to try to cross the desert, people get lost out there and die. Each year the bloated maggot infested bodies are taken from that stretch of desert out there if there is even that much of them remaining after the javalina and the coyotes and vultures are finished with what remains. What could be more convincing than a Law Enforcement Officer standing over a group of bloated corpses, with a message that 'Death Waits in the Desert' but they come anyway. They think our country is the promised land or something, and I have heard that their country's second biggest source of money is from people in this country sending money back home for their relatives.

Most of the big problem on the border here is Organized Crime and Drug Cartels, people dealers and smugglers. I admit that we do need help here, but you will never get me to admit that we need a group of untrained militia members that have already been asked not to help by the Border Patrol.

Hypothetical question for you all...Suppose you are down near Naco (on public land in the US, suddenly you are under fire from the Mexican side of the border! A member of your group responds, he's been in the military he's been under fire before. He returns fire, and wounds a Mexican citizen...How do you resolve an international incident caused by a man who felt he was defending himself (which is his right IN the United States), but his bullet struck someone in Mexico? I can give you my best guess about what would happen, but it's not a very happy scenario for a man who felt he was protecting himself and his fellow militia men. It's also going to cost our Country. The medical facilities on the other side of the border are as dismal as you might imagine, we are NOT at war with Mexico. The only humane thing to do would be to med-evac the injured person/persons to the closest medical facility that could handle the crisis in the UNITED STATES at taxpayer expense with the apologies of the United States Government. If this hypothetical incident had not happened the Border Patrol could have stopped the two trucks full of death (meth)/dope that came into the country while they were trying to get assistance for all of the injured and prevent a riot or a shoot out.

Could it be that some of you have watched the movie "Tombstone" a few times too many? I have to ask, you say AZ is an "open carry state", don't wear or carry a gun into a bar, you will be asked to leave. The owners of individual businesses have the right to say whether you "open carry" in their establishments or not (the bar owner would have no choice if he values his permit to serve alcohol, 'tis forbidden, Minutemen. KNOW the law before you start making statements about what will and will not be allowed. There are exceptions in that open carry law and the laws concerning what is considered concealed or legal with your sidearm too, pards. I know a little bit about the weapon laws because both my husband and I have Concealed Carry Permits in this state. (This involves classroom instruction and evaluation and qualifying at the range with your handgun). One of my friends made the mention that I might suggest that your group could find inexpensive temporary quarters at a Church out here (well it has quite a reputation and the last time I saw it, it was in dire need of help~ construction help)...It was a Bible College at one time (I will look for some links for any Minutemen who may want to contact the owner/Pastor in control of the land and buildings. Try doing a search on Miracle Valley and the events that took place there and perhaps for a nominal fee, they may allow you some camping space? It is actually one of the more active routes for UDAs or illegals whatever you want to call them, I just thought you would want to speak with the same terms that are now the expected terms. Until I post again, here's another link for all of you to enjoy...this one from our local Sierra Vista newspaper: http://www.svherald.com/articles/2005/01/28/local_news/news3.txt

[jmc813]

You seem to have an irrational fear of guns.