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To: GOPcapitalist

I think this represented the will of the voters, but not the (white) population.


15 posted on 02/18/2005 6:23:37 PM PST by LS (CNN is the Amtrak of news (there is no c in Amtrak and no truth in MSM news))
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To: LS; 4ConservativeJustices; lentulusgracchus
I think this represented the will of the voters, but not the (white) population.

That's a theory that you are free to advocate and defend if you like, but three issues still remain:

1. The voter turnout for the secession referendums in all three of those states is on par with their typical voter turnout statewide in a presidential election year, suggesting that the secession electorate was representative of those states' normal electorate.

2. Your book either claims or implies (I don't remember the exact wording) that no southern state held a referendum and that they all seceded through convention, does it not? If so this is in the very least a factual error.

3. Even if we were to assume your theory about the will of the population were true, do not the secession referendums also violate the quote you gave in your book purporting that the south collectively seceded on the approval of only about 600 or so power elites? Those referendums indicate that in addition to the 600 or so convention delegates the decision included roughly 385,000 members of the voting public?

16 posted on 02/18/2005 6:38:01 PM PST by GOPcapitalist ("Marxism finds it easy to ally with Islamic zealotism" - Ludwig von Mises)
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To: LS; lentulusgracchus
Also, let's consider your statement that the will of the voters did not represent the white population. Let's take the case of Texas to be specific. Women IIRC did not gain the right to vote in any state for about another decade and did not vote nationally for another half century, so that places our candidate population to determine whether or not the vote was representative among white males over age 21. Also keep in mind that in 1860 there were few places even in the north that permitted free blacks of any status to vote then, and typical northern states like Illinois and Ohio had laws explicitly barring it. Put another way, the total population of voting age white males in a state is generally speaking the maximum possible electorate that could have been obtained back then, assuming that all of them from the richest plantation owner to the poorest sharecropper or day laborer participated.

Now, according to the 1860 census Texas had 228,585 white males total living there. Of this figure 109,625 were older than age 19. The categories were not recorded statistically between 19-21, but a reasonable guesstimate puts the adult white male population in 1861 is about 100,000. We also know that exactly 60,900 voters participated in the Texas secession referendum, putting statewide voter turnout at 61% of the maximum possible electorate. I think you would be hard pressed to argue that 61% turnout is unrepresentative under any circumstance. Care to reevaluate your position?

18 posted on 02/18/2005 6:55:47 PM PST by GOPcapitalist ("Marxism finds it easy to ally with Islamic zealotism" - Ludwig von Mises)
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To: LS
While we're at it let's try Tennessee as well. The 1860 census gives the state's total white male population at 422,779. Of that, 189,470 were older than age 19. Let's guesstimate again and say that Tennessee had about 175,000 white males over the age of 21.

Tennessee's referendum had 151,654 participants total. That puts their turnout among the maximum potential electorate given the time (all adult white males) at 86.6%. Do you care to tell me that 86.6% is not representative either?

19 posted on 02/18/2005 7:01:13 PM PST by GOPcapitalist ("Marxism finds it easy to ally with Islamic zealotism" - Ludwig von Mises)
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To: LS

On to Virginia now. In the 1860 census they had 528,842 white males. Of those 246,016 were in the 20+ age range. Using another reasonable guesstimate, let's suppose about 225,000 of those were 21 or older, making our maximum potential number of voters (assuming all adult white males participated) the same. 169,652 people voted in Virginia's secession referendum. That puts turnout at 75.4%. Now tell me. Is that unrepresentative of Virginia's popular will as well?


20 posted on 02/18/2005 7:05:54 PM PST by GOPcapitalist ("Marxism finds it easy to ally with Islamic zealotism" - Ludwig von Mises)
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