Christian men called to become 'warriors', not 'nice guys'

The New Zealand Herald ^ | 26 January 2005 | Nigel Hunt

[John O]

One would think that the Bible, taught by the local church, with inspiration provided by the Holy Spirit should be enough.

It should be but the church has failed in (part of) it's mission to encourage men. We are to be accountable to each other but we seldom are.

Promise keepers and other men's movements give us a way to recapture that accountability in a non-threatening environment

[RobRoy]

Heh, heh...

Why do you think I'm "RobRoy?"

Not joking.

[Bear_Slayer]

Promise keepers and other men's movements give us a way to recapture that accountability in a non-threatening environment

I'm concerned that you (or many) see the local church as 'threatening'. In what way might the church be threatening?

It seems to me that the local church has become program centered, and does everything possible to woo people into attendance.

one would think that the whole reason for church is to leave with a squishy feel-good experience and not with the perspective, that one has just spent 1-2 hours in the presence of God.

How could today's "self-centered" church be threatening?

[John O]

I'm concerned that you (or many) see the local church as 'threatening'. In what way might the church be threatening?

On the contrary, my local church is not threatening in the least. Perhaps I misspoke that. Let me try again:

It is sometimes hard to confess serious sins and shortcomings of character to those most familiar with you. It shouldn't be, but it many times is. How does an elder of the church (or a deacon or the janitor for that matter) confess a pornography addiction and get help getting delivered from it? The local church body would (usually) destroy the poor guy for committing a sin that is far too common.

Our egos have become so fragile that we guard our public reputation so tightly that we have no accountability to protect our private reputation. (see where I'm coming from?)

PK gives us a situation of mostly anonymous brothers where we can confess these sins and be prayed for/with to get that first step towards victory over them accomplished, without the immediate threat of destruction from friendly fire. Now once the sin is confessed it loses much of it's power and it's far eaiser to rise above it, and then to confess it more openly. We should be able to do this in our local churches but in many places we just can't

It seems to me that the local church has become program centered, and does everything possible to woo people into attendance.

Which of course is part of the problem. The programs can't heal our hurts, only Jesus, through the love and understanding of our church families or other brothers can do this.

[LadyPilgrim]

Where in the world did you get the idea that Promise Keepers beat their wives?

[Bear_Slayer]

It is sometimes hard to confess serious sins and shortcomings of character to those most familiar with you. It shouldn't be, but it many times is.

Understandably so. This is not usually because one's is bashed or slandered afterwards, but it's difficult to admit to another that we may be less than who we think we are. This is simply pride on our part. We also might be afraid to lose our standing in the church.

How does an elder of the church (or a deacon or the janitor for that matter) confess a pornography addiction and get help getting delivered from it? The local church body would (usually) destroy the poor guy for committing a sin that is far too common.

I agree that this happens, but i do not believe that this is the major hindrance to repentance in the local church. It's much easier to repent to a stranger, than the guy in the pew next to you. Also, what may appear as destruction to you, or some, might be rightfully applied church discipline. Those in authority that have sinned need to step down from there ministry, espepcially in the area of adulterous sins. The bible requires leaders to be above approach, and yet proverbs states clearly (I forget which one at the moment) "His reproach will never be wiped away." I don't speak of sin. These are accomplished in Christ. But God knows that the local church never forgets. That cloud will hang over a pastor's head for along time. Thus requiring a stepping-down and a time for the local body to be healed.

Our egos have become so fragile that we guard our public reputation so tightly

ego or pride?

PK gives us a situation of mostly anonymous brothers where we can confess these sins

Because it is anonymous, it is to easy to do and lacks accountability at the local level. The problem oftem reoccurs and a cycle of sin/repentance happens, which creates a hardening of the heart until a major blow-up occurs, through an accidental discovering of the sin.

If the local church is failing in their responsibility, we should not try to replace it with anonymous repentance in a stadium atmospere, but rather fix the problems at the local level.

We should be able to do this in our local churches but in many places we just can't

I believe that PK compunds the problem by relinquishing the local church from its responsibility.

[R. Scott]

Will “Onward Christian Soldiers” get back in the hymnals?

[csvset]

Oh, I thought it was a call to arms.

[John O]

Also, what may appear as destruction to you, or some, might be rightfully applied church discipline.

Shunning is not proper church discipline. Yet it happens. Once a man's reputation is damaged by his sin, even if he repents, many in the church do not forget, and won't let anyone else forget either "That's Deacon Jones, he had an affair 20 years ago, you know"

Those in authority that have sinned need to step down from there ministry, espepcially in the area of adulterous sins.

Agreed, but what about those not in authority? They still get their lives destroyed

Because it is anonymous, it is to easy to do and lacks accountability at the local level. The problem oftem reoccurs and a cycle of sin/repentance happens, which creates a hardening of the heart until a major blow-up occurs, through an accidental discovering of the sin.

One of the strong goals of PK is to establish local accountability groups. In fact, all the men I know who have attended PK meetings have established such ties in their local churches or in their local areas. We've got lots of close friends who attend other churches in our town. God sees us all as one family, and for themost part so do we

If the local church is failing in their responsibility, we should not try to replace it with anonymous repentance in a stadium atmospere, but rather fix the problems at the local level.

Agree. But PK does not replace the local church, it suplements it

I believe that PK compunds the problem by relinquishing the local church from its responsibility.

Again I have to disagree. Another goal of PK is to build the local church. PK's are encouraged to make their local churches better. One way is by starting local PK groups and getting all the men of the church involved and accountable to each other.

[Bear_Slayer]

Shunning is not proper church discipline.

Having been shunned in the past (for leaving a cult) I can agree that what is practised as shunning is not proper discipline. Although,

A man that is a heretic after the first and second admonition reject. Titus 3:10

Furthermore

if [after repeated attempts of correction a person] shall neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. Matt 18:17

Professing believers that will not repent, must be excluded from the local church. This is not to say that we treat them badly nor cross the street when they appear, but we must not excuse nor give appearance that their sin is acceptable. Every attempt should be made and continued attempts should be made to bring repentance.

RE: Promise Keepers

I went to one. The preaching lacked substance and the gathering lacked reverence. 10,000 christian men shouting "Jesus! Jesus! Jesus!" Sounds remarkably like, "Caesar! Caesar! Caesar!" I expected lions to come out and tear apart those in the field.

The whole event did nothing spirtual for me. lacking appreciation for the event, I went outside the stadium and fell asleep on the grass. When I awoke, the spirit of the Lord was upon me and I dwelt in perfect peace. That is, until I went back into the stadium and we did 'The Wave' and knocked large beach-balls around. How can anyone outside the church take PK or us (the church) serious?

PK cost, at that time, $65.00 to attend and still, at the end, KFC buckets were passed around for donations. This money doesn't include the money that was made from sales of t-shirts, stickers, and cassettes. It felt like big business. I expected Jesus to come out at some point and cleanse the stadium of all the money changers.

If PK, blesses you, praise the Lord, but for me, I think that PK lacks credibility and that repentance and correction should be handled at the local level.

God Bless,

Bear_Slayer.

[John O]

Professing believers that will not repent, must be excluded from the local church

correct. But it is often the case that repenting believers are excluded. Paul tells us in 2Cor 6:5 9or thereabouts) to treat such a one (who has repented from sin) with great love so that he wouldn't be disheartened. (He's referring top the same guy from 1 Cor 5:1-6)

[Terabitten]

I completely agree with you both. If you want to find out God's will for you, READ THE BIBLE. Start at the beginning, read all the way to the end, then start back over again.

And you're right, the book was incoherent.

[Ohge07]

Amen Leadership of the type which will be needed in this world if we are to withstand our enemies will not lead by reason but by faith and what follows will pale the 7th century. Its coming and we all know it.