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To: Terpfen
"1) That's fine, but it really has no impact on new console games. Consoles have used proprietary APIs and OSes for 2 decades and grew fine. Microsoft using its own OS in its own console really isn't worthy of much mention or consideration"

Oh yes it does.
FACT: You need an OS top run your vid game console.
FACT: If Microsoft didn't have Windows, they'd have had to develop an OS for their console from scratch, same as Sony and Nintendo did at far greater cost to Microsoft.(Linux is out, Microsoft wouldn't use it for obvious reasons).
FACT: Having a ready made, very good Windows 2000 OS to use cut down drastically on the cost and time to market of the XBOX console.Microsoft developed their console much faster than Sony did with their Playstation.
Its IS very relevant.

" Good move by Microsoft--but PS3 is using OpenGL, nullifying that advantage"

My reply to that is the same as above.
It still saved Microsoft a great deal of costs and time to market of the BOX.
I don't care if Sony "nullified" any advantage or not.
It was Sony that was already in the market.Microsoft was the challenger.
It was up to Microsoft to nullify any advantages Sony had.
Using Direct was one of the ways they did just that.

"The console market is completely different. Microsoft doesn't make the hardware, and has to deal with outside contractors for that. More parties leads to less overall profits. Sony has an advantage because it's a gigantic consumer electronics company--they spent $2 billion on the R&D for the PS2 alone. Microsoft is a software company"

I don't even know where to start on this one.
Not a single one of your points makes much sense.

To start off with, If anything the fact that its hardware makes my point even more valid.
Lets take Windows NT for example.
Microsoft started writing NT in 1987 when they brought in David Cutler and his gang from Digital.
It wasn't till 1996 when NT 4 came out that Microsoft actually started making any real profits on NT. That is NINE solid years!
Today, without NT, Microsoft will be in very deep trouble indeed.
During all that nine years, the cost of developing NT kept going thru the roof every year as they took on more programmers and as they paid the original programmers even more money.Some of those guys writing NT were making $500,000 per year at the time, plus stock options.
If you take the XBOX which is being made in China at very low cost, if anything the cost of making the console keeps going down every year..
Comparing NT or the original Windows to the XBOX, Microsoft has been able to turn it round much faster than most of their big software projects, in part because their cost of production for the hardware keeps going down every year, whereas costs for their software projects had always gone up.
The fact that the XBOX is hardware helps buttress my point rather than distract from it.
As for your talk about Sony being "a gigantic company" spending $2 Billion on R & D alone as you put it, it just made me laugh.
Microsoft is spending to the tune of around $6.8 Billion on R & D per year right now. Makes Sony's $2 Billion look like tiddlywinks doesn't it? :)
http://news.com.com/Microsoft+plans+to+boost+RD,+jobs/2100-1016_3-5053516.html

Second point of course is Sony is in deep trouble.Their consumer electronics business like TV's, VCR's, DVD's, camcorders etc etc are barely making a profit if at all, and they are taking a beating from Samsung in all of those products.
In Sony's latest results reported on Jan 26, their sales were down to the tune of 7.5%.
Microsoft quarterly profits are currently running at over twice that of Sony.

Extract from Sony's results:

"Sales for the quarter dipped 7.5 percent to 2.15 trillion yen (US$20.9 billion; euro16.07 billion) from 2.32 trillion yen.

Sony said its electronics sector suffered as sales of TVs and portable music players dropped.
.................................
In recent years, Sony has suffered from competition from cheaper Asian rivals such as Samsung Electronics. It has also fallen behind Japanese rivals such as Sharp Corp. in liquid-crystal display TVs and Matsushita Electric Industrial Co., which makes Panasonic brand products, in DVD recorders. "

Sony is in deep doodoo.
They are in no position to fight a nasty knuckle down price war with Microsoft when the net generation of consoles come out, while Microsoft is financially stronger than ever.
28 posted on 01/28/2005 6:13:38 AM PST by KwasiOwusu
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To: KwasiOwusu
"FACT: Having a ready made, very good Windows 2000 OS to use cut down drastically on the cost and time to market of the XBOX console.Microsoft developed their console much faster than Sony did with their Playstation. Its IS very relevant."

No, it's not. Name one person who bought an Xbox because it's running a modified version of Windows. You can't do it, because none exist. People buy game consoles for games. Developers go to where the gamers are--right now, they're in Sony's camp, and the PS2 is a miniature b!tch to develop for. You need to clear away some misconceptions you have about the console market.

"I don't care if Sony "nullified" any advantage or not."

You should, because the console market is a competitive one. Why is it that Microsoft using DirectX is an asset, but Sony using OpenGL isn't?

"Microsoft is spending to the tune of around $6.8 Billion on R & D per year right now. Makes Sony's $2 Billion look like tiddlywinks doesn't it? :)"

No, not really. Sony spent $2 billion on R&D in the years preceeding the PS2's launch, only on the PS2. Microsoft, five years later, is spending $6.8 billion on R&D FOR THEIR ENTIRE COMPANY. You aren't appreciating the situation Microsoft is in: it's a software company in a hardware market. My points didn't make sense to you because you can't grasp this concept: Microsoft has entered into an extremely competitive market, one that is almost an inverse from the operating system/computer software market.

"Sony is in deep doodoo. They are in no position to fight a nasty knuckle down price war with Microsoft when the net generation of consoles come out, while Microsoft is financially stronger than ever."

Sony is in no such trouble: they are buoyed by their PlayStation divison and are using the PS3 as a leverage point for their new technologies. They will do whatever they can to continue dominating the console market. They are the 800lb gorilla, not Microsoft, and it doesn't matter if Microsoft has good sales of Windows this year: they need to have good sales of their console, or they won't be making an Xbox3.

I also find it hard to see how Sony is suffering from Samsung's competition, given that they are cooperating with Samsung in the LCD market.
31 posted on 01/28/2005 8:15:43 AM PST by Terpfen (Gore/Sharpton '08: it's Al-right!)
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To: KwasiOwusu
Microsoft started writing NT in 1987 when they brought in David Cutler and his gang from Digital. It wasn't till 1996 when NT 4 came out that Microsoft actually started making any real profits on NT. That is NINE solid years!

In general, I agree with your point of leveraging current software. OTOH, how much is it going to cost MS to port Windows to an IBM platform?

On your Windows history. First, Cutler didn't start until 1988. Second, a huge reason for the cost and delay is the success of Windows 3 in 1990. Cutler had been designing NT to the OS/2 APIs for a couple of years, but then Gates told them to change everything to be compatible with the Win 16 APIs and DOS. This was a great marketing decision, but it resulted in an inferior OS that was delayed for years. This fundamental design decision haunts Windows to this day.

42 posted on 01/31/2005 8:08:01 AM PST by antiRepublicrat
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