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Finding common ground between God and evolution ("Theory is greater than facts)
Seattle Times ^ | Jan 25, 2005 | Froma Harrop

Posted on 01/25/2005 6:15:41 PM PST by gobucks

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To: Doctor Stochastic

Actually, if you go back to earlier periods, such as the time of the Roman empire, Numidians and other Africans were thought of as basically equal. The Romans used Numidian and Gaullic cavalry in similar ways, and showed no signs of thinking that the Gauls were superior to the Numidians.

In earlier times, too, the worst barbarians came from the North--first the Germans who invaded and destroyed the empire, then the Vikings who attacked the coasts of Ireland, England, France, and other civilized countries.

It was a common theory that civilization belonged to the south, and that the further north you got the stupider and more barbaric people were.

Nor did the ancients ever think of the Chinese as a lesser race. It was during the time when Chinese coolies worked on the western railroads that you began to hear that kind of nonsense, about yellow hordes and the like.

Darwin was not singlehandedly responsible for the rise of racism, but Social Darwinism played an important part in it. "Race" was an essentially scientific idea--bogus science from some points of view, although I won't argue that.

The racist version of slavery was likewise a fairly modern invention. In the ancient world, slavery was universal, but they didn't pick on a particular race to enslave. It was just the unlucky losers.


61 posted on 01/25/2005 8:02:54 PM PST by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: punster
There is some natural variability in any species . . .

No argument from me there. Has anything other than reasonable conjecture ever shown it to be natural that one species, in time, became another? How much of the "amoeba to man" story has been confirmed by science?

62 posted on 01/25/2005 8:04:15 PM PST by Fester Chugabrew
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To: gobucks

Theories can be a higher level of understanding, and they can explain facts. BUT several different theories can explain most of the same set of facts (few explain all the facts), so a theory is always shaky. Newton's laws were 'gospel' for centuries but are now seen to be only a low-velocity approximation to relativistic mechanics.


63 posted on 01/25/2005 8:05:25 PM PST by expatpat
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To: Coyoteman

That was the BEST post I have seen on the "Fact-Evidence-Hypothesis-Theory" fog. Thank you! I hope you intend to stay around and help enforce those rules (and maybe enlighten us some more). Are you a tecaher? That was an excellent description of the issue.


64 posted on 01/25/2005 8:06:27 PM PST by NJ Neocon (Democracy is tyranny of the masses. It is three wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner)
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To: muawiyah
Sorry

Evangelicals claim to be a sliver between old line protestants and fundamentalists. They say old line protestants belevie less in God than them but that is not really true.

There was a article on FR in the last two weeks written by half a dozen evangelicals. (You can find it by typing in rocketman and seaching my posts if you are interested) In the article these evangelical leaders claim they belevie in the bible as the word of God. They claim they are the defenders of the faith but they tell us that they beleive that Genesis and other passages are myth and based on legend that may have some seed of truth mixed in. These people say (Though not in the article) that the miracles occurred by natual means example: The manna in the wilderness was ant or termite eggs. The red sea parting was a lunar tidal event with lots of wind, etc. They tell us that God is a mindless vapour -- a cosmic conciousness. He has no hands feet voice -- that scripture mentioning these atributes is false and they are actually anthropormorphisms written only so we can thing we can relate with God (Omiting the words in genesis that we are created in the image and likeness of God That we look outwardly and think somewhat like God.)

These same people tell us that other tahn Jesus and the Apsotles that the early christians were barbaric pagans and that men over time were able to build christainity into the great moral religion that it is today.

Or we can say that they belevie that God in the bible is the creation of man.

Now, no self respecting Roman Catholic No believeing Jew, No Demoninational Protestant, no fundamentalist pentecostal or charismatic could ever with conciousence say any of these things, either about the bible, God, or their faith in God. The only people that are close to this are humanists and so while evangelicals call themselves less legalistic fundamentalists -- We have to say they are humanists and that they like the New Testament and a few select passages as moral humanist literature.

65 posted on 01/25/2005 8:09:04 PM PST by Rocketman
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To: gobucks
"The chance that higher life forms might have emerged in this way is comparable with the chance that a tornado sweeping through a junkyard might assemble a Boeing 747 from the materials therein'." Sir Fred Hoyle (English astronomer, Professor of Astronomy at Cambridge University), as quoted in 'Hoyle on Evolution'. Nature, vol. 294, 12 November 1981, p. 105

"Evolutionism is a fairy tale for grownups. This theory has helped nothing in the progress of science. It is useless." Prof. Louis Bounoure (Former President of the Biological Society of Strasbourg and Director of the Strasbourg Zoological Museum, later Director of Research at the French National Centre of Scientific Research), as quoted in The Advocate, Thursday 8 March 1984, p. 17

"I myself am convinced that the theory of evolution especially the extent to which it's been applied, will be one of the great jokes in the history books of the future. posterity will marvel that so very flimsy and dubious an hypothesis could be accepted with the incredible credulity that it has." Malcolm Muggeridge (world famous journalist and philosopher), Pascal Lectures, University of Waterloo, Ontario, Canada

66 posted on 01/25/2005 8:11:29 PM PST by Ol' Sparky
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To: Coyoteman
Lets try again. I believe that the moon is made of green cheese. That's my theory. Well, if that is true the six Apollo landings should have found some evidence of cheese. Nope! No cheese. Hypothesis not confirmed. My theory is either wrong or seriously in need of revision.

No, the moon may still be made of green cheese -- the Appollo folks may have just landed on the outer covering of the cheese. All you can say is that your hypothesis is neither confirmed nor rejected by the facts currently available. Newtonian mechanics was not rejected by facts until the motion of objects at close to the speed of light was examined.

67 posted on 01/25/2005 8:13:13 PM PST by expatpat
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To: Ol' Sparky

Oh, well, that proves it. I'm going to ignore all those other people out there.....


68 posted on 01/25/2005 8:22:05 PM PST by narby ( A truly Intelligent Designer, would have designed Evolution)
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To: Doctor Stochastic; Physicist
Also pinging you guys to my post #60. I'll appriciate any input. Thoughts?

-The Hajman-
69 posted on 01/25/2005 8:31:12 PM PST by Hajman
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To: gobucks
That whole line, unfortunately, couldn't fit in the title. My agenda? Gee whiz. I don't have an agenda ... no more than you do. I will accept your word as I don't know you. I was reacting the changed meaning of the text and how others were using that meaning and further disenfranchising the authors meaning.
70 posted on 01/25/2005 8:34:43 PM PST by WildTurkey (When will CBS Retract and Apologize?)
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To: ohioWfan

I must have missed that in Sunday School. Where does it say that the animals were immortal before Adam sinned?


71 posted on 01/25/2005 8:36:00 PM PST by WildTurkey (When will CBS Retract and Apologize?)
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To: LauraleeBraswell

He was.


72 posted on 01/25/2005 8:37:17 PM PST by Tribune7
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To: Hajman

However, randomly generated mutations do act like diffusion. There are no "charastics" for diffusion equations. Things happen at all scales.


73 posted on 01/25/2005 8:39:31 PM PST by Doctor Stochastic (Vegetabilisch = chaotisch is der Charakter der Modernen. - Friedrich Schlegel)
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To: Ol' Sparky
Evolution, about to be falsified "any day now" for over 150 years.
74 posted on 01/25/2005 8:47:07 PM PST by Dimensio (http://angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif <-- required reading before you use your next apostrophe!)
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To: phoenix0468
I always thought that in the scientific method, theories were based on evidence and facts were the result of tested theories.

The article is correct, but incomplete. Theories explain a set of obsrevations or facts. What a theory may eventually graduate to, after extensive testing and firm belief in its correctness, is a Law. Like Newton's Laws of Motion, The Laws of Thermodynamics, or the Universal Law of Gravitation.

75 posted on 01/25/2005 8:47:58 PM PST by pjd
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To: phoenix0468
"I always thought that in the scientific method, theories were based on evidence and facts were the result of tested theories. "

Not quite. Example:

An apple falls to the ground (fact)
( Next day ) An apple falls to the ground (fact)
There is an attractive force between the ground and the apple, causing it to fall ( hypothesis. OK, not quite. Sue me )
This attractive force can be explained by this relation.....(theory)

76 posted on 01/25/2005 8:49:38 PM PST by Tench_Coxe
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To: Fester Chugabrew



No argument from me there. Has anything other than reasonable conjecture ever shown it to be natural that one species, in time, became another? How much of the "amoeba to man" story has been confirmed by science?



One thing that happens, when a segment of the species gets isolated from the rest of that species, the variations happen independently of each other, and probably go in different directions. The variations can stack up to the point, that two new varieties cannot breed with each other. You could say they have become different species, though not markedly different from each other.

The big thing Natural Selection does not explain is the origin of life. It does not explain what the spark was that began life.


77 posted on 01/25/2005 8:52:07 PM PST by punster
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To: Coyoteman

Good post. What test shows that an oak and a coyote have a common ancestor?


78 posted on 01/25/2005 8:54:23 PM PST by Tribune7
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To: WildTurkey; ohioWfan
I would like someone to explain to me how we are to believe that God used evolution for his creation. When did the first man appear if we evolved into the homosapiens that we are now? God pronounces all of his creation "good" at the end of each day, yet we are told (by evolutionists) that millions of years of death, decay, and suffering have occurred previously. The Bible says that Adam was created to live forever until he sinned, and he was then cursed with death. I'm just trying to understand the theistic evolutionist side of this.
79 posted on 01/25/2005 8:54:50 PM PST by Jessarah
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To: Doctor Stochastic
Perhaps he is unable to quote things properly.

You are correct. I should try harder to be polite.</sarcasm>

80 posted on 01/25/2005 8:55:50 PM PST by WildTurkey (When will CBS Retract and Apologize?)
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