Web site to reveal salaries (teachers' salaries)

Times Leader ^ | 1/22/2005 | BONNIE ADAMS

[Born Conservative]

The union representative is angry about publication of salary, reimbursements and sick days amid contract talks.

WRIGHT TWP. - Every Crestwood teacher's salary, tuition reimbursements and related pay hikes, plus accrued sick days will soon debut on the school district's Web site.

School board member Gene Mancini Jr. said it's a way to inform the public as contract negotiations continue, but union representative John Holland called the move "offensive and irresponsible."

"It's the public's right to know," said Mancini, who serves on the contract negotiation team. He said the board held a public session in November and next week's planned release of salary and benefit information is a continuation of that.

Holland said school board President Bill Jones and the "other clowns" on the board need to stop playing political games.

"They can put whatever spin they want on it," said Holland, an attorney with the Pennsylvania State Education Association. He said the board is doing a great disservice by trying to generate public sentiment against teachers.

"It tends to make people disrespectful of the teachers," Holland said. He said the teachers' salaries are reasonable given the number of years they have worked at Crestwood.

"The numbers are staggering," said Mancini of teachers' salaries and health benefit amounts. The 2004-2005 spreadsheet the school district compiled lists 27 teachers being paid the top annual salary of $71,408. The district pays more than $14,000 annually for some teachers' health benefits.

Lesser paid teachers received $25,854 a year and some health benefits cost the school district $5,200 annually.

The information lists one teacher's salary increase of $20,000 for additional academic credits and another teacher as having accrued $11,970 worth of sick days at $35 per day.

Holland, the PSEA attorney, acknowledged that some information the district plans to release is public, but if it is releasing information on accrued sick days, people can easily determine what teachers have been sick based on the 10 allotted sick days per year.

Holland cited the federal Health Insurance Portability and Accountability or HIPAA act that safeguards medical information. "They can proceed at their own risk."

He noted that the district and the Crestwood Education Association are entering the fact-finding stage of negotiations. The state Labor Relations Board on Tuesday assigned fact-finder Alex Kaschock, who has 40 days to issue non-binding recommendations.

"Let the process work," Holland said Friday. He said this is not the time for the district to post teacher information on its Web site.

School district Solicitor Jack Dean said members of the public have requested the information and now they will be able to determine the financial impact of the proposed contracts.

The district Web site already contains a side-by-side comparison of the union and district collective bargaining proposals, the millage impact and the district's last offer on Nov. 9, before the strike.

The school district's 160 teachers, librarians and some other employees are working under the terms of their old contract, which expired in August 2002.

[drt1]

"I don't think that will be possible in the political climate of today to pay all costs involved.

IMO until an accurate and objective measurement of the costs is recognized then allocation of societal resources will continue to be based on personal/political preferences, assumptions based on other agendas and worse. This is not conducive to any reasonable output and illustrates one of the many problems facing public education today.

[moog]

Yep. Homeschooled kids can do all that stuff and still get the personalized attention and first rate schooling they need. Yeehaw!

In Minnesota, the funding per pupil is on the order of $11,000 a year. Give HS parents half that amount to school their own children and watch the revolution. As it is, homeschoolers are burying the publik skools on a shoestring.


Boy I wish we got even close to that here. I do respect homeschoolers a bit as I do see some parents put forth a good effort. I see a lot too that don't, and some that use it as a free babysitting service. I do think that it should be a viable option for parents, though.

[moog]

IMO until an accurate and objective measurement of the costs is recognized then allocation of societal resources will continue to be based on personal/political preferences, assumptions based on other agendas and worse. This is not conducive to any reasonable output and illustrates one of the many problems facing public education today.

Boy, you like that IMO:). I'm not one who believes in more money=better output, but I do believe that more money spent wisely can have good effects (note not loads more). I am one that says the right attitudes, perceptions, and actions increase the output (whether it is numerical or more perceptual)significantly.

[drt1]

I use IMO for 2 reasons: 1) Because it IS my opinion (Usually well supported) and 2) There are those here who are apt to take offense or otherwise resist statements that sound too much like pronouncements of fact so I just try to soften the message where I think it can improve communication.

[moog]

I use IMO for 2 reasons: 1) Because it IS my opinion (Usually well supported) and 2) There are those here who are apt to take offense or otherwise resist statements that sound too much like pronouncements of fact so I just try to soften the message where I think it can improve communication.

I caught the gist of it and did know the acronymic meaning. You seem like you are a very well-spoken individual. I certainly wish I had the gift of words like that:). You do communicate very well.

[arjay]

I was not complaining. My wife was not complaining.

I merely stated that teachers have to buy supplies and pay for extra schooling and that meant that raw salary figures did not paint the whole picture.

She hates the NEA. I hate the NEA.

People should read what a post says before reading things into what is posted.

[uncitizen]

People should read what a post says before reading things into what is posted.

I did read your entire post. I misinterpreted you and you obviously weren't as clear as you thought.

[arjay]

Could be.

[Amelia]

Give HS parents half that amount to school their own children and watch the revolution. As it is, homeschoolers are burying the publik skools on a shoestring.

It won't work. It would be wonderful for people like you, but look at the history of our country and the history of public education.

In the early years of our country, most educated people began by being homeschooled, either by their parents or by tutors their parents or a group of parents hired. If the parents were too poor to pay for a tutor and too ignorant to teach them, the children were unlikely to be educated.

If we declared that all students should be homeschooled, some parents now would be too ignorant or too irresponsible or too substance-addicted to teach their children.

If we paid parents to teach their children, some would do so, and some would spend the money on other things. If we just rebated property taxes, some parents would get back enough to educate their children very well, and some parents would get nothing because they don't own property (althought their rent might go down).

Homeschooling works well on the whole because the parents who choose to do it are very motivated and interested in doing it. Not all parents would be.

[Amelia]

Public education is a disaster, and public school teachers as a group are a huge part of the problem. Your wife may or may not be one of the the "good ones," but that doesn't change the fact that there are one hell of a lot of bad ones. And, having been a teacher, I can tell you that one bad teacher can totally change the course of education for a child.

"My wife" is not a teacher. I am the wife, and the teacher, in my household.

I choose to believe that one good teacher can change a child's life.

I'm guessing you work in the northeast. My experience with unions doesn't parallel yours, but unions aren't nearly as strong or active in the South.

I've worked in a school where the teachers were as hidebound as you describe, but I've also worked in schools where most of the teachers were knowledgable, caring, and worked extra hours, bought many materials out-of-pocket, and generally went the extra mile for their students.

Were you and your dozens of teacher relatives as awful as the stereotypical public school teacher you describe?

I think there is plenty of blame to go around for the state of public education today - some for teachers, some for parents, some for judges & politicians and bureaucrats in general.

The state of education basically mirrors that of society in general, and IMO both have been going downhill since about the 1960s.

We've had the baby-boomers, the "me-generation", Dr. Spock & the self-esteem movement....all of these undermined discipline in the home and in the schools.

The feminist movement meant that there were fewer mothers at home for their children, more broken homes, and also there was a bigger variety of careers available for bright women -- which meant that many women chose a "real career" over being "just a teacher" or "just a mother", leading to the devaluing of "traditional women's work".

There's plenty of blame to go around, and I haven't even scratched the surface.

[WorkingClassFilth]

I agree with all of your points. The revolution I speak of is that which would occur when publik skools hemorrage to the point where the death-grip of the NEA can be broken.

I do NOT advocate the selfish abandonment of public school children, but I don't for a moment kid myself that any curatives for the problems in schools will come about through the NEA or government initiatives.

For those that are not willing to wait for that time or refuse to sacrifice their children's education while the 'professionals' fiddle, then home schooling should be pursued - and sacrificed for. OTOH, if parents are unwilling to restructure their lives, careers and consumption habits, then home schooling is a bad idea.

I still want the rebate or a deep, deep tax credit though...

[Amelia]

The revolution I speak of is that which would occur when publik skools hemorrage to the point where the death-grip of the NEA can be broken.

I think the amount of grip the NEA has on schools depends upon the location. I think there are both excellent and atrocious public schools.

You've heard the old saying "A people get the government they deserve"? I tend to think that also holds true in public schools. Schools vary by community and location, and on the whole communities with conservative parents who are concerned about and active in their childrens' education will tend to have conservative, excellent schools.

On the other hand, communities with high rates of disfunctional families will tend to have highly disfunctional schools as well.

JMHO.

[WorkingClassFilth]

Don't kid yourself about the impact of the NEA. They are, I believe, the second largest contributer to the Democratic Party after the American Trial Lawyers. They may not figure in the direct control of the schools where you are, but they certainly set the tone and direction of modern education and curriculum. This says nothing of their extracurricular support for radical agendas across all facets of politcs - and the sacrifice of public dollars to Leftist gods.

Of course, as you say, there are good and bad schools, but on the whole we are in a systemic crisis with education - not an excusable 50/50 dilema. I would strongly disagree, however, with the notion that people get whatever system they deserve. Politics doesn't always work that way. The truth is that what people get for education is something that is often shoved down their throats whether they like it or not. I have heard too many horror stories from relatives, friends and aquaintances to buy the notion that when schooling is failing it is the fault of the parents or that they aren't involve enough. Fact is, many home schoolers become educators because they are sick to death of fighting an entrenched system.

Now, I do not condemn all teachers. In fact, I believe the majority are probably good people trying to do a hard job. It seems to me that the real problems with public education lie in areas like curriculum, spending priorities, theory and pedagogical fashions and the championing of secular values and the like.

I also tend to think that the day of the government run system is over. Government has enough problems tucking in its own fat waistline to continue in the charade of being the right party to mold young minds on top of everything else it fails to do properly.

[RavenATB]

"I choose to believe that one good teacher can change a child's life."

You can believe what you like--your business is dealing in a fact-based curriculum. I tend to believe what I've see, what I know, and what I can prove.

"I'm guessing you work in the northeast. My experience with unions doesn't parallel yours, but unions aren't nearly as strong or active in the South."

I live and work in the Florida panhandle. I taught in Wisconsin and Iowa. I understand that unions aren't as active or strong down here, but I'm talking about public education as a regional thing...you'll recall I said public education is a national disaster. Certainly, there are small pockets of good news. When someone dies of cancer, its usually not spread though 100% of the body.

Liberals love to tell us that if scraping our Second Amendment rights would save the life of a single child, the sacrifice would be worth it. Public education pushes millions of undereducated adults into American society every year. Hundreds of thousands of them are either illiterate or exceedingly poor readers. How many children do those of us who advocate for educational choice have to promise will be saved before taking a few bucks away from this failed experiment will be worth it? How many children's futures need to be squandered at the alter of the public education bureaucracy before someone says the loss is to high to justify continuing to maintain public education at the level of the 'sacred cow,' where protection of the institution is a higher priority than the education of our children?

"I've worked in a school where the teachers were as hidebound as you describe, but I've also worked in schools where most of the teachers were knowledgeable, caring, and worked extra hours, bought many materials out-of-pocket, and generally went the extra mile for their students."

Were the jobs of those horrible teachers protected by the teachers union? Were the jobs of those horrible teachers you knew protected by the tenure system? In one or both cases, the answer is most certainly "yes"! Thank you...you made my case for me. This is the system that is throwing away the futures of millions of Americans, while fighting to the last breath to save the jobs of the most unprofessional and inept teachers the same as they do the best and most capable. If you're a union teacher, then your dues are going to support the defense of the worst teachers imaginable, and therefore, you're part of the problem--regardless what you do in the classroom.

"Were you and your dozens of teacher relatives as awful as the stereotypical public school teacher you describe?"

I can't speak to the abilities of my three cousins who currently teach. My wife teaches in a private school and she's a superior special needs teacher. So much so that she actually draws families into the school so their kids can be in my wife's class.

I have three grandmothers (two on my side and one on my wife's) who taught in one-room school houses. My mother's mother taught in a school about seven miles west of the town where I grew up and attended school. She taught first through sixth grades and had what was about 30 total students in the average. Along with teaching all six grades she maintained the inside of the building (sweeping, garbage and the like). In my seventh grade year my class was joined by six students who had attended my grandmothers school through sixth grade. By the time my class of 165 completed high school and graduated, five of those six students were in the top ten in my class--the top three and two more somewhere around #7 and 8--and the sixth was still in the top 20. Of the 165 graduates of my high school senior class, only 17 went on to graduate from college by the time we'd had our five-year reunion. All six of those students who'd come from my grandmother's one-room schoolhouse were among those 17 who had a 4-year college degree.

In my second year of teaching public school I was recognized as being one of the top ten teachers my state in my area of specialty. At the end of that year, after refusing to join the union, I wrote a letter to my school board asking for a $500 merit pay increase for the following year. The school board refused award me a merit pay increase. My principal told me later that their decision was 100% due to the fact that they didn't want to confront the union who was hostile to the idea of merit pay. I submitted my resignation the same day.

"I think there is plenty of blame to go around for the state of public education today - some for teachers, some for parents, some for judges & politicians and bureaucrats in general."

I'm sure you do. After all, you spend the majority of your waking day in the classroom. If you're an elementary school teacher you spend more time in direct contact with nearly all of your students than do their own parents. Those judges and politicians and bureaucrats...how much time do they spend in your classroom? Do they tell you what to teach or how to teach? Do they tell you how to respond to a child who asks you a question that relates to a fact-based part of the school curriculum? Do they somehow prevent the school from teaching thousands of kids to read.

"The state of education basically mirrors that of society in general, and IMO both have been going downhill since about the 1960s."

In this we agree. Since the 1960s, when public education was first infested by the union movement, our educational system has been going steadily downhill. Here's where we differ--I'm unwilling to sit quietly while the status quo washes the futures of hundreds of thousands of American children down the toilet. I can't fix parenting. I can't point to a judge whose keeping "Johnny from reading." I can't find a politician who gives enough of a damn to walk into the average public school to see what's going on. But, I do know that there are one hell of a lot of lazy, ignorant, good-for-nothing people drawing a pay check while under contract to educate the kids in their classroom.

I do know that unions and the tenure system protect teachers who should be fired at the expense of the children in their classrooms. I know that thousand of teachers who want to think of themselves as good, while they pay dues to maintain a union that protects lousy teachers from suffering the appropriate consequences for poor performance and all manner of misdeeds and sometimes even criminal activity.

I do know that there are hundreds of thousands of teachers who support forcing other fellow teachers to pay dues into the union for the purpose of supporting Democrat candidates for President (in every presidential election since the NEA was first chartered, by the way).

Public education is a corrupt institution that's infested with some of the most unprofessional people this nation has ever produced. The vast majority of well-meaning parents no little of how bad the situation really is.

"We've had the baby-boomers, the "me-generation", Dr. Spock & the self-esteem movement....all of these undermined discipline in the home and in the schools. The feminist movement meant that there were fewer mothers at home for their children, more broken homes, and also there was a bigger variety of careers available for bright women -- which meant that many women chose a "real career" over being "just a teacher" or "just a mother", leading to the devaluing of "traditional women's work". There's plenty of blame to go around, and I haven't even scratched the surface."

I believe that you are as aware of the fact that public education is a disaster as am I. You've posted quite a bit, here, and you really aren't debating the point. Most education experts don't debate it either. You're more than aware of the abuse, the waste, the incompetence, and the arrogance of public education. You're fishing for reasons to shed blame from the institution on everyone, so you can feel better about the investment you've made in a system that's failing the children while fighting to protect the incompetent.

I left public education because I couldn't stand being part of what I was seeing. The paycheck wasn't that important to me. I couldn't participate in a union that was set up to put the needs of the teachers ahead of the best interest of the students. I didn't get into education to put my needs ahead of the needs of my students, and I certainly wasn't going to pay money out my check to supporting something like that.

I knew I could make more money in other professions, and I didn't want to be part of a system that protected failing and abusive teachers at the expense of kids. I got into teaching because I wanted to help kids. After two years in the system I became convinced that I was part of something far worse than I'd previously understood.

Nothing I've seen in the past 23+ years after leaving teaching has made me think better of that. But I've had dozens of friends and people who work for me tell me incredible horror stories about incompetent and abusive teachers and school staff.

I cannot imagine caring so little for my own children that I'd ever let them spend a single day in the public school. I cannot imagine caring so little for other children that I would participate in a system that is so poor and so corrupt.

Every year thousands of teachers stand by in silence as hundreds of thousands of children graduate from public school without a proper educational foundation. Every year thousands of teachers put money into a system that protects bad teachers at the expense of students futures. Every year thousands of teachers ignore the abuse and incompetence around them so as to not "rock the boat." Lord, we wouldn't want to make any waves...

No, I think the public education system is completely and totally corrupt. There are, most certainly, a smattering of teachers who are trying to educate their students. For the most part, even those good teachers participate in the worst of public education through their silence and their financial support of the NEA.

Personally, I believe this nation would be far better off if we fired every single American public school teacher, tomorrow morning, and told parents it was time to "do over."

There is absolutely no possibility that any new system we could set up could be so corrupt, so wasteful, so abusive, so arrogant, and so ineffective as the public "education" we suffer with today.

[tahoeblue]

Oh - please someone do the same for the Lake Tahoe Unified School District. Here our average salary is over $67,000, benefits are over $10k/year and average number of teacher absences are 16 days per school year. And all the union can do is complain about getting too little and working too hard. Those 9:00 to 2:30 jobs 8 months of year are real killers. Yes, this type of thing needs to be brought to the public's attention. Do teachers deserve to be paid well? Of course - but they should get raises based on merit and results not on credits and passing the mirror test. Success should be judged on how many students go to college, graduate, get good jobs, and contribute to there communities. Teachers should get their continuing education courses and training on their own time not on school time - especially when they get pay raises for attending the courses on our children's time.

[weshess]

I will chexk it out. I know our starting wages for a teacher are $35,000.

[Amelia]

First of all, I'm not an elementary school teacher, and I don't belong to a union.

When I left my job in industry to teach school, I understood that the rules would be different. I understood that I'd be paid a lot less, and that I'd be paid the same as everyone else with my degrees and level of experience, no matter how hard I worked. I could have chosen to teach at a private school, and perhaps the salaries are more negotiable there, but they are still low.

In my second year of teaching public school I was recognized as being one of the top ten teachers my state in my area of specialty. At the end of that year...I wrote a letter to my school board asking for a $500 merit pay increase for the following year. The school board refused award me a merit pay increase....I submitted my resignation the same day.

So, you got an award, and you were young and full of yourself, and thought they'd bend the rules for you. When they wouldn't you decided to take your ball and go home, and you've been mad ever since.

There are two basic types of teachers: those who teach because they aren't qualified to do anything else, and those who teach because they have to teach. If you need to teach, perhaps it's one reason for your continued anger and resentment? [2 bit psychoanalysis = worth nothing ;-)]

Those judges and politicians and bureaucrats...how much time do they spend in your classroom? Do they tell you what to teach or how to teach?

They tell the students they have to be at school or they can't get their drivers licenses, their family won't get a welfare check, and/or if the student doesn't attend school, he or his parent will go to jail.

They don't tell the students they have to do the work or pass, just that they must show up. Obviously they don't spend any time in the classroom to see the consequences of their declarations.

The educational system in this country could use improvement, but by and large the performance of any given school or school district reflects the community.

There's plenty of room for improvement, and I'm hoping NCLB is a good start. It's not perfect either, but if it will guarantee that by the time students get to high school they are able to read at a 7th grade level or above, it would be an improvement.

[RavenATB]

"So, you got an award, and you were young and full of yourself, and thought they'd bend the rules for you. When they wouldn't you decided to take your ball and go home, and you've been mad ever since."

Was the "industry" you left reading palms and tarot cards? Stick to what you know, because guessing isn't your strong point.

I left public education because I needed to make a better living as my wife was pregnant with our first child and we had decided she would stay home with him. We were losing her income and I needed a higher paying job. I wasn't mad when I left. In fact, it was a tearful departure for me, dozens of my students and many of their parents.

"There are two basic types of teachers: those who teach because they aren't qualified to do anything else, and those who teach because they have to teach. If you need to teach, perhaps it's one reason for your continued anger and resentment? [2 bit psychoanalysis = worth nothing ;-)]"

There are basically two types of people who debate on these boards: those who debate with facts and deal with what was said, and those who play games. One of the games that's commonly played by the second group is to analyze the psyche' of the "opponent" using the worst and most negative possible assumptions and use their analysis as a debate point. You have demonstrated a dismal ability to debate the actual hard points I make, so you turn to amateur psychology, analyze me in the most negative possible manner, and use your poorly conceived conjecture as the main thrust of your response. Your path is intellectually weak.

I got into teaching because I cared about kids. I'm angry at public education because its a dismal failure, they've been dumbing down the system for 40 years, they produce tens of thousands of functional illiterates every year, they use an extremely unfair system of taxing property to pay for their "business," because many--very many--teachers care more about tenure and perks than they do the kids in their classroom, they reject any and all attempts to reform the system to the benefit of the children, and because I still care about kids.

"They tell the students they have to be at school or they can't get their drivers licenses, their family won't get a welfare check, and/or if the student doesn't attend school, he or his parent will go to jail."

They tell children that because the children's parents, as a group, want those politicians to tell them that. They are, after all, politicians.

"They don't tell the students they have to do the work or pass, just that they must show up. Obviously they don't spend any time in the classroom to see the consequences of their declarations."

Politicians set the academic criteria for your school? Really? What school do you teach in? I've got a few phone calls to make.

"The educational system in this country could use improvement"

Public education is the worst performing major thrust of government. It is and continues to be a disaster.

[Amelia]

You have demonstrated a dismal ability to debate the actual hard points I make

I hate to tell you that just because you believe something to be true, doesn't make it so.

You obviously believe that teachers are the primary reason schools are failing, and you refuse to entertain other options.

I believe there are many reasons schools are failing, and you refuse to even consider that I might be correct.

If you can't tell the difference between facts and opinions, there may be no point in discussion.

[Reagan80]

You have entirely missed the point of my post.

It was not a complaint about my own situation. It was to point out the detached reality that teachers live in.

Everything in my post is dictated by market forces; the wage-level; the numbers of hours worked (full-year vs. 8 months), the lack of time off (the worst thing you can do is to not pull your weight; your co-workers will do you in long before your boss ever notices...).

The solution is not for me and everyone else to leave the marketplace and join the education bureaucracy, the solution is to bring market competition to education, and the postive pressures toward results that go with it.

Read my tagline...

Reagan80