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After reading comments like post 21, then fifty-odd "jealousy, thy name is Noonan" posts, I and a few other poor souls posit that Noonan should be allowed to speak her mind about Bush's address, and that people shouldn't reflexively insult her just because they disagree with her review of this speech, that blind allegiance is foolhardy.

You and your pinged pals call us idiots and tell us we must be joking. You tell us that we're only saying there are blind followers here because WE are personally bitter, and offensive to boot.

Then you act as if we should not reply in kind to comments like that. Someone on the 'bot side goes crying to the mods when you get a taste of what you dish out. The "neener-neener-you-got-pulled-so-you're-guilty" post to which I'm replying is a prime example of a love some of you have for hounding those with whom you disagree, insulting them until you find something offensive enough in their replies to bitch to the mods. Meanwhile, you consider the insults you're lobbing back and forth with your opposition the "exchange of intellectual ideas," and that you are the reasonable parties, while your opening and further posts are insulting us all the way. I always enjoy the laugh when you do actually post something to the effect of this last post, that we're "beaten in the realm of ideas." Let me know when you find a single one of us who agrees with that pie-in-the-sky post.

The worst part is that we AREN'T your opposition and weren't insulting YOU at all--unless you all self-identify with people who ARE blind followers. I speak for myself, but I wouldn't be surprised at all to find I speak for others, when I say again that I am only criticizing and attacking the folks who insult Noonan instead of addressing her comments, or insult me. While you and your pals don't seem to think we have any right to even DEFEND her ability to comment without joining DU, and that Noonan should join DU for her sacrilege in criticizing Bush, too, we agree that YOU have an absolute right to disagree with her. But calling her jealous and no conservative and ugly, and calling us idiots or bitter or worse is just not at all what discussion and debate are about. We have every right to demonstrate disdain for those people who believe that debate is about making sure you get to yell loud insults--and instead make ours the louder insult--as opposed to attempting to reason with people who have shown they don't appreciate or understand reasonable discussion at all. That any of you identify with those people who cannot attack her ideas without attacking her person speaks volumes as to your true 'reasonableness.'

I appreciate your post.

I haven't been following this thread very closely, so I must've missed some of the really obnoxious comments.

When I first heard about this it did surprise me quite a bit. But Noonan's been right on the mark enough in the past that it would be silly to dismiss her completely on this piece alone.

And call me crazy but I still suspect she wasn't *really* upset at the "God-drenched"-ness of the speech so much as some other issues that are personally bothering her. I wish she'd just come out and say it.

May I also add Noonan is far from ugly.

The problem, Lib, is that you have lumped all of us into a big group, without discerning who said what about what to whom. I said nothing nasty about Peggy. I merely defended what the President said in the speech (and myself as an independent thinker to those of you who persist in calling all of us "blind followers"), so your ranting in her defense is entirely irrelevant and inapplicable to me, as is nearly everything else you said in that post.

The final thing I will say to you, is to ask you to think about your choice of the word "Pharisee" to insult me. Please do some research before you fling that word around again. It made no sense whatsoever, in light of anything I've said on this thread.

If you wish to discuss anything civilly at a future date, please give me a call. Otherwise, I'm not that interesting in reading about how sorry you are feeling for yourself.

Excellent post.

I've determined (using their own standards) that those launching personal attacks on Noonan do so out of ignorance, spite, and jealousy. As such, their opinions are easily discounted ;)

//emphasis added for those too busy crafting strawmen to bother with reading comprehension

The worst part is that we AREN'T your opposition and weren't insulting YOU at all--unless you all self-identify with people who ARE blind followers. I speak for myself, but I wouldn't be surprised at all to find I speak for others, when I say again that I am only criticizing and attacking the folks who insult Noonan instead of addressing her comments, or insult me.

For nearly 600 posts, that was my point. It is becoming rediculous how often people are being called "liberals" or "not conservative", etc., because they disagree with group think. Specifically, any disagreement with the President.