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Skipper of submarine San Francisco relieved of command
Navy Times | 1/20/5 | William H. McMichael

Posted on 01/20/2005 7:33:30 AM PST by SmithL

Commander Mooney has been reassigned.


TOPICS: Front Page News; Government
KEYWORDS: cmdrmooney; submarine; usn; usssanfrancisco
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To: Strategerist
Nuclear Subs have only been based at Guam since 2002.

Guam has been home to a tender and port-of-repair for nuclear subs for decades. Been there, done that - several times. Spent many hours there putting pennies in the slot machines, drinking beer and playing kamikasee in a rental sailboat. The only hassle was getting across the tender to the pier - something about them wanting us to have clean uniforms and regulation haircuts inorder to step aboard their ship!

81 posted on 01/20/2005 8:36:08 AM PST by WildTurkey (When will CBS Retract and Apologize?)
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To: llevrok

Kennedy had the courage to go to PT Boat duty, which was very hazardous. His older brother, Joe, whom his father originally planned to make President was killed in the line of duty. I respect their courage and commitment to this country. However, hitting something (or being hit by something) in a naval vessel is a major league fubar, and with the exception of JFK, I've never heard of a commander being cleared without reprimand, much less being honored for the event, other than Kennedy.


82 posted on 01/20/2005 8:40:56 AM PST by Richard Kimball (We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men are ready to do violence on our behalf)
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To: brownsfan
"I'm an old timer, but I'll try. First, I think the # of screws is a factor: Frigate - 1, Destroyer - 2, Cruiser - 4. And, the role of the ship. If you think Carrier group, closest in is the Cruiser, heavily armed for AA. Next out, Destroyer, mix of AA and AS. Farthest out, the Frigate, many Frigates have their own AS helicopter. Frigates are lightly armed for AA."

But now, some foreign Frigates have two screws or water jets, Aegis Cruisers have the same hull and propulsion as a Spruance Destroyer (no cruiser has four screws any more), and the new DDG's have the same armament and perhaps greater AA capability (with fewer missiles) than the CG's. However, the CG's fill a lot of their VLS with non-AA missiles. To add to the mix, large missile boats (600-800 tons) can be called both Frigates and Corvettes. Our FFG, DDG, and CG now all carry ASW helicopters. I suspect new terms will be in play 20 years from now.
83 posted on 01/20/2005 8:43:11 AM PST by SampleMan ("Yes I am drunk, very drunk. But you madam are ugly, and tomorrow morning I shall be sober." WSC)
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To: Richard Kimball
[ I'm not trying to hammer Kennedy, but I can't imagine any other situation in which a commander of a naval vessel could allow his boat to be run over, be lauded as a hero for it, and actually have parade floats built of the destroyed craft. ]

Because Roman Catholics went Gaw-Gaw over JFK and some women ... and democrat Roman Catholics worshipped him.. over the years however its been learned that JFK was a POOPE.. ask any Cubans that partipated in the Bay of Pigs.. JFK was also a coward.. Kruschev had his 20.. and pegged him correctly.. an empty suit..

84 posted on 01/20/2005 8:43:51 AM PST by hosepipe (This propaganda has been ok'ed me to included some fully orbed hyperbole....)
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To: SampleMan
UR# 53.....boat?

German Not?

85 posted on 01/20/2005 8:50:56 AM PST by maestro
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To: xzins
If GI Joe loses his rifle, it's his commander whose career is ruined.

I was going to say cr@& but I see you are a Chaplin. While in the service I saw a Pershing dropped on a POV - VW. Radios (mounted in 2 1/2 ton trucks) "misplaced", side arms missing, and trucks lost. I NEVER saw an Battery or Battalion Commander replaced. A senior NCO or a platoon leader, but never the OIC.

BTW - God Bless you Sir.

86 posted on 01/20/2005 8:51:11 AM PST by HoustonCurmudgeon (Redneck from a red city, in a red county, in a red state.)
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To: connectthedots
Good clarification. I suspect the reason for the word "relieved" having different connotations in the Army and Navy is that the Navy has always been a round-the-clock shiftwork operation, so people are "relieved" all the time because they can't work continuously. In the Army, everyone except sentries sleeps at night, when an officer goes off duty nobody is "relieving" him.

If the investigation reveals the captain did everything by the book and made no identifiable mistakes, his career will recover. But I'll bet there is some obscure general directive somewhere that commanders are supposed to be aware that some areas are less well-charted than others and appropriate additional caution ought to be exercised in such areas; if there is, AND if the mountain could have been avoided had the sub been traveling at a lower speed, then he is toast.

Freepers with sub duty experience, help me out here: if there is an uncharted undersea mountain in the sub's path, and active sonar is not on, how would the sub be expected to avoid the obstacle? If there is no way, that means that subs must always turn their sonar on when they are traveling a path that no other sub or mapping ship has ever taken; but is there a database that allows them to know that no other sub or mapping ship has ever taken that path?

87 posted on 01/20/2005 8:52:31 AM PST by VeritatisSplendor
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To: judicial meanz; submarinerswife; PogySailor; chasio649; gobucks; Bottom_Gun; Dog Gone; HipShot; ...

Here's a click-albe hotlink and a ping to everyone else: http://www.navytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-609556.php


88 posted on 01/20/2005 8:55:11 AM PST by Doohickey ("This is a hard and dirty war, but when it's over, nothing will ever be too difficult again.”)
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To: Red Badger

The Navy isn't in the chart business, DMA is.


89 posted on 01/20/2005 8:56:59 AM PST by Doohickey ("This is a hard and dirty war, but when it's over, nothing will ever be too difficult again.”)
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To: hosepipe

Agreed. I've always thought that a significant part of the hatred for W is the fact that the media liberals and northeasterners have desperately wanted the Kennedys to be the "American Royal Family." Joe got killed in WWII, John got killed in his first administration, Robert was killed during the primaries, Ted killed a girl and has spent the rest of his life acting like a man trying to drown himself out of the memory of the fact, JFK Jr., who by all accounts was a likeable enough guy, but not particularly talented, died in an airplane crash of his own doing, and there are various other scandals, including rapes, sex with babysitters, drugs, etc. Meanwhile, Bush I served as President, W, two term President, and Jeb just has to say, "okay" to be the 08 nominee.


90 posted on 01/20/2005 8:57:08 AM PST by Richard Kimball (We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men are ready to do violence on our behalf)
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To: shubi
As a former Navy officer, I knew he would be relieved.

As a former draft lottery number 315, never having served in the Military, I knew he would be relieved.

;)

Common sense, and SOP.

91 posted on 01/20/2005 8:57:14 AM PST by Michael.SF. ("My only regret in life is neither of my kids is gay." Sharon Osborn)
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To: inkling
No, the frigate is a target.

I was on a destroyer, and we were doing an anti-submarine exercise between Hawaii and the west coast. We waited for three days for that sub to show up, and it never did. Our Captain was pissed! He complained up the chain of command about us wasting three days waiting for a sub that never showed.

In response, the Captain of the sub sent our captain a very nice picture of our ship, taken through the periscope, with our Captain clearly visible on the bridge wing. :-)

In all my time on that tin can, the only ship that our sonar ever found was the Kittyhawk.

92 posted on 01/20/2005 8:58:06 AM PST by wyattearp (The best weapon to have in a gunfight is a shotgun - preferably from ambush.)
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To: VeritatisSplendor

I suspect the sub may have been on a classified op ("tracking" the new ChiCom subs?). Our boats are too sophisticated to not "see" a mountain unless they are playing hide and seek at 30 knots with something.


93 posted on 01/20/2005 8:59:18 AM PST by llevrok (Straight Guy with a martini)
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To: All

Re: #31, #67, #75, #83 (and any I missed)

#75 got it right. A ship can "carry" boats.

Just call the Captain of a destroyer a "boat driver" and you'll find out in short order.....


94 posted on 01/20/2005 8:59:54 AM PST by CTOCS (This space left intentionally blank...)
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To: VeritatisSplendor
If the investigation reveals the captain did everything by the book and made no identifiable mistakes, his career will recover.

That I doubt. As I understand it, run aground and there are no more promotions. But I'm not the cum laude expert on these things.

95 posted on 01/20/2005 9:00:45 AM PST by squidly (I have always felt that a politician is to be judged by the animosity he excites among his opponents)
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To: r9etb
Which further suggests to me that flying around submerged at 30 knots in such a place was not a very good idea in the first place.....

That's the only thing I can think of for which he may possibly be faulted. And that obviously depends on the fleet SOP's, including the speeds at which they are supposed to travel under those conditions, etc. If there was something saying to exercise appropriate caution when moving in waters known to have uncharted obstacles, then I can see blaiming him. But if Fleet SOP was to travel at that speed, or he had orders or a route that required it, I can't see it as being his fault.

In terms of accountability in the other services, I recall an incident in Korea in 1986 where an idiot Marine riding shotgun in an ammo truck shot at and killed a Korean because he mistakenly thought he was armed only with blanks. The CO was canned, and they also canned the gunny who had not even deployed with them due to Korea because he was in the hospital. The rationale was that he was the guy responsible for unit discipline, and so was at least partically responsible for the screw-up even though he wasn't in country at the time.

96 posted on 01/20/2005 9:01:14 AM PST by XJarhead
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To: shubi

Was he relieved or reassigned? To me, as an Army Puke, there is a difference.


97 posted on 01/20/2005 9:02:10 AM PST by Redleg Duke (Pass Tort Reform Now! Make the bottom clean for the catfish!)
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To: wyattearp
I was on a destroyer, and we were doing an anti-submarine exercise between Hawaii and the west coast. We waited for three days for that sub to show up, and it never did. Our Captain was pissed! He complained up the chain of command about us wasting three days waiting for a sub that never showed. In response, the Captain of the sub sent our captain a very nice picture of our ship, taken through the periscope, with our Captain clearly visible on the bridge wing. :-) In all my time on that tin can, the only ship that our sonar ever found was the Kittyhawk.

Reminds me of the time we were playing war games with a carrier group. Sub was restricted to a 3-D box that didn't even allow us to "go deep" to hide. We shot a flare over the carrier deck. Copters pinging like mad as we went under the carrier and escaped undetected.

98 posted on 01/20/2005 9:02:48 AM PST by WildTurkey (When will CBS Retract and Apologize?)
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To: CFC__VRWC

Precisely my point.


99 posted on 01/20/2005 9:02:53 AM PST by An Old Marine (Freedom isn't Free)
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To: Strategerist
I believe we have 7-8 of those and they're never going to map the entire surface of the seafloor in the entire world.

15 years ago we'd never map the whole human genome. That required a paradigm shift.

So will mapping the entire sea floor.

100 posted on 01/20/2005 9:04:22 AM PST by null and void (I don't know how I got over the hill without getting to the top...)
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