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To: snarks_when_bored
The word isn't used enough in connection with evolutionary theory.

The scientific term - prediction. There's probably a good reason for that.

whether speciation takes place

Well, then define it. Describe it. Tell me just to what these 'experts' agree - specifically, scientifically, evolutionally even. Your 'prediction'/test, by the way, is neither and does nothing to suggest that one might falsify the 'theory', which 'theory' you've yet to state, even in part.

intelligent design theory has made any prediction

It also used to be derisively termed by zealous evolutionistists - the teleological argument. It is in fact part of the teaching of The Church that God CAN be proven by what we observe of His Creation. It's all the same thing.

What would it predict? It would depend on how it was operationalized by formula and protocol. That would then determine what sort of predictions might be made. That's the problem I see, with evolution. That's also why I suspect you won't be able to answer my previous questions.

10 posted on 01/20/2005 1:25:55 PM PST by sevry
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To: sevry
Well, then define [speciation]. Describe it. Tell me just to what these 'experts' agree - specifically, scientifically, evolutionally even. Your 'prediction'/test, by the way, is neither and does nothing to suggest that one might falsify the 'theory', which 'theory' you've yet to state, even in part.

As I said, I'm neither a biologist nor a paleontologist, so I'm unable to provide the details that you request. But since there is endless wrangling about these details (some of which wrangling may be seen on the web here and here), I don't feel especially bad about that. In fact, the basic argument of my initial post doesn't require anything except common sense to understand. I'll repeat it here (adding a bit more detail):

Currently, the fossil record appears to indicate that modern humans attained their present form no more than a few hundred thousand years ago (useful link). Evolutionists (i.e., almost all biologists and paleontologists) hold that modern humans did not exist before that time and in fact evolved from hominids which differ from modern humans in a variety of respects. That is, according to evolutionary accounts of the fossil record, nowhere on Earth were there to be found modern humans prior to (at most) a few hundred thousand years ago. Hence, if the fossilized bones of a modern human were to be unearthed in a previously undisturbed layer of rock or sediment that is, say, 50 million years old (obviously, the 50 million year figure is pretty arbitrary), this would imply that evolutionary accounts of the hominid fossil record are false.

I'll concede one of your points, though: it's probably correct, but not very informative, to describe this as a prediction (one could, at will, produce millions of similar predictions). Nevertheless, it's clear that what I've described is a discovery that, were it to be made, would falsify current evolutionary accounts of the hominid fossil record as regards modern humans. If advocates of creationism/intelligent design were to make such a discovery, it would certainly make for interesting press.

Finally, let me ask my earlier question in a slightly different way:

Is there any conceivable discovery that might be made about life here on Earth that would be capable of definitively falsifying the creationism/intelligent design account of what's going on here?

If the answer to that question is 'yes', I'd very much like to read a description of that discovery. But if the answer is 'no', it seems to me that one must conclude that creationism/intelligent design is not really a scientific theory, and so, while it might be a pious view to espouse, it shouldn't be mistaken for science.

11 posted on 01/20/2005 2:49:30 PM PST by snarks_when_bored
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