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To: Thatcherite
How do you know speciation when you see it?

If you can't measure something in science, then it is meaningless. If you can't come up with a precise, measurable, quanitfiable, reproducible definition of a speciation event, then don't even try to tell me evolution is a science. Come back when you can.

when we identify a new insect species as we do thousands of times a year how do we know whether it speciated last week, or 3 million years ago?

Doesn't the theory of evolution predict how we should be able to spot speciation? Doesn't it provide mathematical models of how transitions will occur? What morphological changes will take place? Isn't it supposed to explain speciation in a predictable, mathematically verifiable way? Or is it nothing more than a just-so story biologists tell to their children around the fire place at night?

346 posted on 01/19/2005 7:41:53 AM PST by frgoff
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To: frgoff
Doesn't it provide mathematical models of how transitions will occur? What morphological changes will take place? Isn't it supposed to explain speciation in a predictable, mathematically verifiable way?

You could ask the same kinds of questions about weather prediction and get similar answers.

First of all, evolution specifically does not and cannot predict the direction of change. It is not even theoretically possible.

Dismissing ring species is just hand waving. You can't believe it is happening; therefore it isn't happening. Nice work if you can get paid for it.

350 posted on 01/19/2005 7:51:14 AM PST by js1138 (D*mn, I Missed!)
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To: frgoff
If you can't measure something in science, then it is meaningless. If you can't come up with a precise, measurable, quanitfiable, reproducible definition of a speciation event, then don't even try to tell me evolution is a science. Come back when you can.

The theory of evolution makes numerous precise, verifiable, quantifiable, reproducible predictions. Those predictions have been endlessly verified in the fossil record and the genomes of living creatures. Biologists regard common descent as a fact beyond doubt, and the theory of evolution as the only viable explanation for numerous observations.

You are in the position of demanding that someone travels to other stars and checks that they are suns similar to our own before they will acknowledge that astronomy is a science and those dots of light in the night sky aren't just painted on a backdrop in the sky like in "The Truman Show". I expect that you would think such a person foolish. Virtually all scientific evidence is inferrential and indirect.

Rather than demanding a particular experimental evidence that will satisfy you (observed speciation), you should consider what the evidence is that persuades professional biologists that evolution is a fact best explained by the theory of evolution. If you wish to displace the theory of evolution you need to propose a theory that fits the evidence better. For all the kicking and screaming of the ID/Creationist lobby they have been unable to do this, which is why they are ignoring the scientific process and feeding their religious viewpoint that makes no predictions and cannot be falsified directly to schools.

357 posted on 01/19/2005 8:05:58 AM PST by Thatcherite (Conservative and Biblical Literalist are not synonymous)
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