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Posted on 01/14/2005 12:21:45 PM PST by Mr. Mojo
NEW YORK -- There is a nationwide alert to members of law enforcement regarding a new kind of handgun which can render a bulletproof vest useless, as first reported by NewsChannel 4's Scott Weinberger.
The most shocking fact may be that the gun -- known as the "five-seven" -- is being marketed to the public, and it's completely legal
It was a very difficult decision for members of law enforcement to go public about the new weapon, but officers fear that once word of the weapon begins to circulate in the wrong circles, they will be in great danger. They agreed to speak to NewsChannel 4, hoping the public will understand what they call the most devastating weapon they face.
The weapon is light, easily concealable and can fire 20 rounds in seconds without reloading.
"This would be devastating," said Chief Robert Troy, of the Jersey City Police Department.
Troy said he learned about the high-powered pistol from a bulletin issued by Florida Department of Law Enforcement to all of its agents. Troy believes faced with this new weapon, his officers would be at a total disadvantage.
"Dealing with a gun like this -- it's a whole new ballgame," Troy said.
Troy is not the only member of law enforcement to voice concern. As NewsChannel 4 began to contact several more departments in the Tri-State Area, it turned out that officers in Trumball, Conn., had seized one of these handguns during a recent arrest.
"Certainly, handguns are a danger to any police officer on any day, but one that specifically advertised by the company to be capable of defeating a ballistic vest is certainly the utmost concern to us," said Glenn Byrnes, of the Trumball Police Department.
The five-seven is made by FN Herstal, a Belgian company. On its Web site, the company boasts the five-seven's ability to penetrate more than 48 layers of Kevlar -- the material bulletproof vests are made of -- if you use a five-seven, 28-mm armor-piercing bullet.
However, the company said that bullet is not sold to the public. Instead, gun buyers can purchase what the company calls a training or civilian bullet -- the type loaded into the gun confiscated by Trumball police.
At a distance of 21 feet, Trumball police Sgt. Lenny Scinto fired the five-seven with the ammo sold legally to the public into a standard police vest. All three penetrated the vest.
The bullets even went through the back panel of the vest, penetrating both layers.
In a similar test, an officer fired a .45-caliber round into the same vest. While the shot clearly knocked it down, it didn't penetrate the vest, and an officer would likely have survived the assault.
"The velocity of this round makes it a more penetrating round -- that's what had me concerned," Scinto said.
FN Herstal told NewsChannel 4 that they dispute the test, stating, "Most law enforcement agencies don't have the ability to properly test a ballistic vest."
When NewsChannel 4 asked how this could have happened, the spokesperson said: "We [the company] are not experts in ballistic armor."
Back in Trumball, Scinto said his officers would have to rethink how to protect the public and protect themselves.
"This is going to add a whole new dimension to training and tactics. With the penetration of these rounds, you're going to have to find something considerably heavier than we normally use for cover and concealment to stop this round," Scinto said.
In Jersey City, Troy said he will appeal to lawmakers, hoping they will step in before any of his officers are confronted with the five-seven.
"This does not belong in the civilian population. The only thing that comes out of this is profits for the company and dead police officers," Troy said. "I would like the federal government to ban these rounds to the civilian public."
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28 millimeters = 1.1023622 inches is this pistol shoulder fired?
There is a limit to the right to bear arms. Maybe you'd argue that the Second Amendment includes the right to own an a-bomb?
Here's the bottom line. If you want to win the battle against gun control, you've got to agree to some reasonable limit. You've got to carefully choose your battles.
Personally, I don't see much redeeming value for a gun that is designed specifically to penetrate a bulletproof vest. You might make the argument that criminals use bulletproof vests, but it seems far less likely that this gun would be used to defend against a criminal with a bulletproof vest than to shoot a cop with a bulletproof vest. Of course, I'm not an expert on that, but I'm willing to leave that decision to the legislature.
By "such a weapon," do you mean one that fires a vest-penetrating round?
If so, here are a few names (in addition to the one plainly given in the post - FN):
S&W
Colt
Winchester
Marlin
Ruger
Dan Wesson
Taurus
Need I continue?
Guess I'll have to buy one of these now.
Despite what it says on the FN website, these are available for civilian sales. I'll leave it to interested parties to search out the distributor.
I think this whole thing is a bunch of garbage. Sort of a "kill it before it grows" thing. From the bits and pieces of what I have read this could be a heck of a varmint buster--in a handgun. Also small light rifles chambered for this round might be nice for 'yotes, prarie rats and other sorts of vermin. The fact that it has police/military applications is just gravy for some 2nd Amendment types.
Those of you who think this is so terrible ought to check out the 7.62 X 25 and an offshoot called the .223 Timbs-- CZ-52 pistols sell for about $99 wholesale plus you can get them with a curio and relic license and they are perfectly capable of punching a vest...
anyway JM2B
That is case length. Not diameter. The 5.7mm is the bullet diameter.
The FN Site says it's only available for LE and Military, but they're now available to anyone with about $850 who can pass a background check (and doesn't live in NY city, Washington DC, Chicago, etc.)
I was thinking about buying one, but they're too underpowered. I'll stick with my 45 ACPG lock 30.
Where did they get that? 28 mm is about a 1.10 inch diameter bullet!
One question though: Just how durable is it?
The .500 would probably punch your trauma plate right into your body cavity. May not penetrate, but it won't do you any good as the shock transfer alone would turn your guts to jelly.
What is it with you gun grabbers? You always trot out the lamest argument as an excuse to restrict other types of arms. Can't y'all come up with something that HASN'T been refuted a thousand times?
Yes - even the 10mm was touted as being able to go through both sides of a vest with a person wearing it.
Why not
Here's the bottom line. If you want to win the battle against gun control, you've got to agree to some reasonable limit. You've got to carefully choose your battles.
Yeah, the battle you've chosen involves banning all rifles and most handguns.
We have concelled carry in MO and it drives my brother crazy (he's a state trooper), says that he has to treat everyone as armed.
No centerfire rifle was designed specifically to fire bullets that have vest-penetration ability, but all of them have the ability to do so. ....unmodified. ALL of them.
Considering that fact, would you ban all rifles?
I'm saving up my pennies for an EAA Witness in 10mm.
My son is a cop, and I can promise you any cop that has ever wanted to live has always treated everyone as armed.
I believe even the new rimfire .17HMR plinking round will penetrate a CAT II vest. It's velocity, not bullet weight that does it.
You would have to outlaw all guns to stop the sale of new vest busters, and that would do nothing to the black market.
SO9
What a nice, trite, NRA-style PR statement. Now, do you actually agree with the 2nd Amendment or don't you?
Not busting your chops at all, but even if I were a state trooper in a non-concealed carry state, I would regard everyone as armed until I know otherwise. To do otherwise is incredibly foolish.
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